TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD
The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:05 a.m, on April 8, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Curtis LaVerne Crafard.
Mr. Crafard, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and I have been authorized by the Commission in accordance with law and regulations to take a sworn deposition from you.
The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Crafard, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the general inquiry, the death of Oswald and what you know about Jack Ruby.
Now, you have appeared here today by virtue of a subpena dated April 3, 1964, and issued by the Commission to you to appear here in this building, room 400, Veterans of Foreign Wars Building, 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, to be deposed.
When was this subpena served upon you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Last Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that would have been the 4th.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. The 4th of April. Would you rise and be sworn, please?
Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CRAFARD. I do.
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Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. CRAFARD. Curtis LaVerne Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, Mr. Crafard?
Mr. CRAFARD. 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?
Mr. CRAFARD 23.
Mr. HUBERT. When precisely were you born?
Mr. CRAFARD. March 10, 1941.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present occupation?
Mr. CRAFARD. At the present time I am unemployed.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the subpena that you were served with calls for you to bring any documents that you may have concerning the matter under inquiry, and I would like you now to make a return, as it is called, as to the documents you do have so suppose you present those that you brought with you in response to the subpena.
Mr. CRAFARD. All I had was the subpena from the Jack Ruby murder trial. Some news clippings from the Ruby trial, and then more or less a diary I have been keeping for a little while of my own movements.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Crafard, concerning the diary about your movements, do you have any objection if we have photostatic copies made of the pages on which you have made entries?
Mr. CRAFARD. No objection whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you wish to retain the original of this yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Unless it is of some use to you.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it may be, but on the other hand, I don't want to take it away from you unless you feel that you don't want to keep it or have no use for it yourself.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I would like to have the book because it comes in handy for a lot of things.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crafard, who were your parents?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Hugh Crafard, Mrs. Alice Irene Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. Are they still living?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are they living together?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live?
Mr. CRAFARD. At 1219 Birch Street, Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any brothers or sisters?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have one brother living. He is in the Army stationed in Los Angeles, Calif.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Edward D. Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he married?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he have children?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't have any other address for him than that which you have given us?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't give you the address. All I know he is stationed there in the Army.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know what organization in the Army?
Mr. CRAFARD. The Missile Corps, antiaircraft. I have three sisters.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you state their names, please, and whether they are married?
Mr. CRAFARD. Corabelle Crafard, she is married.
Mr. HUBERT. To whom?
Mr. CRAFARD. [Deleted].
Mr. HUBERT. Where does she live?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is residing in Clare, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. Are they living together?
Mr. CRAFARD. He is in the "pen" right now.
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Mr. HUBERT. Penitentiary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one?
Mr. CRAFARD. New Ionia State Penitentiary.
Mr. HUBERT. What State is that in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what offense he has been convicted of?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, B and E, breaking and entering at night.
Mr. HUBERT. How long has he been in the penitentiary?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 7 months, I believe, now.
Mr. HUBERT. What term is he serving?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two-and-a-half to fifteen.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Go on to the next sister.
Mr. CRAFARD. Norma Lee Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is she married to?
Mr. CRAFARD. Owen Neal.
Mr. HUBERT. N-e-a-I?
Mr. CRAFARD. N-e-a-1.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. Do they live together?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do they have children?
Mr. CRAFARD. They have two children.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What is----
Mr. CRAFARD. Alice LaLaine Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her husband's name?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is not married. She lives with my parents.
Mr. HUBERT. How old is she?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is 17.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any brothers or sisters who have died?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have one brother that died.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Gary Harold Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. How old was he when he died?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nine years old.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he die?
Mr. CRAFARD. 1954, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have told us where and when you were born. Now, I ask you where you were born?
Mr. CRAFARD. Farwell, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there after your birth?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure of the length of time we lived right there. We lived around Farwell for 4 years, right around there.
Mr. HUBERT. After those 4 years where did you go?
Mr. CRAFARD. Went to California.
Mr. HUBERT. What part?
Mr. CRAFARD. San Joaquin Valley.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Approximately 6 years.
Mr. HUBERT. That is until you were about 10 years old?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ten years old.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How much schooling did you finish there?
Mr. CRAFARD. First four grades.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the particular place in San Joaquin Valley that you lived?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I went to school at Woody, Calif., and Fairfax, Calif.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. After leaving those places, and particularly the San Joaquin Valley, where did you and your parents move to?
Mr. CRAFARD. We moved back to Michigan.
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Mr. HUBERT. What place, in Michigan?
Mr. CRAFARD. Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. C-l-a-i-r-e?
Mr. CRAFARD. C-l-a-r-e.
Mr. HUBERT. That is when you were 10 years old?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can remember going back; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?
Mr. CRAFARD. We lived in the vicinity of Clare then for about 4 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; until I graduated from eighth grade.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. We moved to Port Huron, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. H-u-r-o-n, Mich.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I attended school at Yale, Mich., Yale High School for 2 years, and then we moved back to California to the San Joaquin Valley again.
Mr. HUBERT. Same place as before?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; we moved to a little place called Plainview where I attended school for a year, Strutmore High School and from there we went to Oregon. I dropped out of school and enlisted in the U.S. Army, September 18, 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do I understand you to say then that you had 3 years of high school education?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that--were those satisfactory years?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean you have credit for those?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You lack 1 year to graduate?
Mr. CRAFARD. I lack about 6 months of finishing high school.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you enlist?
Mr. CRAFARD. I enlisted in Salem, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. And what assignments were you given?
Mr. CRAFARD. I enlisted in the antiaircraft.
Mr. HUBERT. That is U.S. Army?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get basic training?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fort Ord.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was in Fort Ord for 2 months and then I went to Presidio, San Francisco, where I was stationed at an air defense school for a period of 2 months and then I was assigned to D Battery, 2d Missile Battalion, San Francisco Defense Organization.
From there I went to Germany in April of 1959. I was transferred to Germany to Deisley Kersne, and I was stationed with the D Battery, 2d Missile Battalion there. I stayed there until November of 1959 then I was transferred back to the United States where I was discharged November 10, 1959.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you serve altogether?
Mr. CRAFARD. Thirteen months.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the usual tour?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. The usual tour is 3 to 4 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, what caused you to get out sooner?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I understand it is the next thing to a medical discharge.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it based upon, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. General, under honorable conditions.
Mr. HUBERT. You have a discharge reading general, under honorable conditions and you are now taking from your pocket a document which is a photostatic copy, I take it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; DD214.
Mr. HUBERT. Of Defense Department Form 14.
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Mr. CRAFARD. 214.
Mr. HUBERT. 214. May I have a look at it?
Do you have any objection, Mr. Crafard if we have a photostatic copy of this document that you have just shown me?
Mr. CRAFARD. No objection.
Mr. HUBERT. So that it can be part of the record and we will give you back the original.
Mr. CRAFARD. No objection.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was the place of your discharge from the Army in the United States?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fort Sheridan, Ill.
Mr. HUBERT. When you were discharged, where did you go?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to Kalkaska, Mich., where I resided with my brother-in-law and my sister.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. At the present time it is Mrs. Ingersol. At that time it was Mrs. Richard Clair Tenniswood.
Mr. HUBERT. She had been married twice then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, then we had better get that information about her. Who was her first husband?
Mr. CRAFARD. Richard Clair Tenniswood. She had two children, two girls by him.
Mr. HUBERT. How was that marriage disolved?
Mr. CRAFARD. By divorce.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the grounds?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure of the grounds sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she divorce him or did he divorce her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she divorced him. I am not positive about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I knew him very well.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he is?
Mr. CRAFARD. He lives at Port Huron, Mich., just out of Port Huron, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Farmer.
Mr. HUBERT. Has he remarried?
Mr. CRAFARD. He plans to remarry this summer.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him recently?
Mr. CRAFARD. Last time I saw him was about 2 months ago. A little over that.
Mr. HUBERT. About how long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed there for about, let's see, I stayed there until the following spring, in April.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been April of 1960?
Mr. CRAFARD. April of 1960. Then I went back out home to Oregon.
Mr. HUBERT. When you left the U.S. Army, did you have any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. When you left the U.S. Army did you have any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just what I got from my discharge pay.
Mr. HUBERT. How much was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had right around $400 all together.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that all you had?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is all I had; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean is that all the property you had of any sort whatsoever?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had a few items of personal clothing.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean you had no items such as rings or jewelry or things of that kind?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I never wear jewelry, rings.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have an automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't own any real estate, I take it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
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Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have any cash but what you said?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be correct to estimate that your total worth other than the cash you just mentioned at that time was less han a hundred dollars?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long did you stay with your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed with them for about 6 or 7 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the pulpwoods.
Mr. HUBERT. What does that mean?
Mr. CRAFARD. We were cutting pulpwood.
Mr. HUBERT. What did that pay?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was piece work. We was making about $8 a cord.
Mr. HUBERT. About how much would that amount to a month?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, man.
Mr. HUBERT. Just an estimate?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably right around $400.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be net before taxes, wouldn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you assist your sister financially for board and so forth?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; we was working together, my brother-in-law and I.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean was were you able to save any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't save any money there.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not. You stayed there about 7 months?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 7 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went back out home.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say where?
Mr. CRAFARD. To Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time you made the move then from the home of your sister to Dallas, Oreg., how much money did you have then?
Mr. CRAFARD. About $150, enough to go out there.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that you had spent all the money you had earned by working plus a good part of the savings or the money you had received from the Army?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So that upon arrival at your parent's home in Dallas, Oreg., you had approximately $150.
Mr. CRAFARD. I was almost broke when I arrived home.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other type of property?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of your arrival back in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been in March of 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. My main residence then up until this last fall has been Dallas, Oreg. I have done a lot of traveling around.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do to support yourself from the time you returned to your parents in March 1960?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to work in the fruit----
Mr. HUBERT. In the fruit what?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the fruit, picking fruit. Then I went to work in a cannery. Then I was gone for a while and I worked with the carnivals when I was gone.
Mr. HUBERT. I think we had better get some details about that. How long did you work with the fruit industry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably right around a month.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been in the spring of 1960?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you went to the cannery?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I worked there for about 6 months.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you make there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was making a $1.15 an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. What did it net you before taxes by the month about?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say probably right around $400 for the month.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave your parent's home?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't give you an exact date on this, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, would it be fair to say it was about 7 months after you arrived there from Michigan?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was in the spring of 1961. I believe, probably in April of 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. So that in fact you were with your parents after you moved from Michigan to Dallas, Oreg., for approximately 1 year?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Of which time you say you worked about 7 months?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to school for about 6 months out of it, about 5 or 6 months out of the year, I attended high school.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you finish?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What high school was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas High.
Mr. HUBERT. Oregon?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not earning anything then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it that you left Dallas, Oreg., about April in 1961, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to California where I joined the carnival.
Mr. HUBERT. What part of California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, in Oroville, Calif., where I joined the carnival.
Mr. HUBERT. Oroville?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What carnival was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Royal West Golden Gate combined.
Mr. HUBERT. Royal West Golden Gate combined?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What type of carnival was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was more or less about the general run of the mill for a carnival. Mostly rides.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "carnival" you are talking about a place where they have these rides for children and so forth?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How big a carnival was it, I mean, how many people were involved?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is pretty hard to say exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was working with the circus that was attached to the carnival.
Mr. HUBERT. Animal circus?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. They all traveled as a group?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with that, in that sort of a group?
Mr. CRAFARD. I worked that for about 3 or 4 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all, 3 or 4 weeks?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, where did you go to next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I traveled through Georgia where I joined another carnival in Georgia, Jerry Lepke Ten in One.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a side show was it?
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Mr. CRAFARD. He had the sword box, ladder of swords, fire eater, two-headed baby show, and a snake girl show.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do at that carnival?
Mr. CRAFARD. Roustabout and barker.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was with Lepke for about a week.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. After that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I visited with my sister and my brother-in-law again for a little while for about 2 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one?
Mr. CRAFARD. Tenniswood. Then I went to Detroit where I joined a kiddyland setup.
Mr. HUBERT. That is sort of a carnival strictly for children?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; parking lot carnival.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was in the fall of 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay with that organization?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was with him for about 2 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you do?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went back to Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Dallas what did you do? Oregon, I mean.
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to work part time at the Muir and McDonald Leather Tannery and then I went to work for Boise Cascade Valzets Division for the Boise Cascade Plywood. I worked for them until in June of 1962, June 10th, 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. How long then did you work for them?
Mr. CRAFARD. For about 6 months, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. What were you making there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was making, I believe, $2.25 an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. About what did it amount to by the month before taxes?
Mr. CRAFARD. About $400, $450.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not married at this time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you able to save money?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was spending my money just about as fast as I made it. I was traveling, paying for transportation back and forth to work, buying clothes. By that time I had bought a motorcycle or a motorbike, and I bought a few items, I bought a refrigerator for my mother or a dryer for my mother at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have some information that you worked for Federal Aviation Agency through July and October of 1960 in Los Angeles?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; in Los Angeles--I believe they were out of Los Angeles, where I worked for them that was over in Nevada.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Surveyor's assistant. I had forgotten I had worked for them.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us anything about your employment with Stewart-Hill in Berkeley, Calif., 1052 Dwight Way, Berkeley, Calif?
Mr. CRAFARD. 1 don't remember even.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been between July and September of 1960?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember working for the Teer Plating Co., Dallas, Tex.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about it, please.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I worked for them 2 or 3 weeks, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did you make with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was making a dollar and a quarter an hour while I worked for them. I believe when I left there my last check was either $65 or $85.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the first time you had ever been in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, I believe it was, I am not certain of that.
Mr. HUBERT. That was between April and June of 1961, was it not?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. The way I have traveled around, I had a lot of jobs I even forgot about almost.
Mr. HUBERT. What was this Muir Co. you were talking about?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a leather tannery.
Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Muir McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At 111 Street. Is that Dallas, Tex., or Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked for them for about almost year, with a couple of time outs, didn't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Altogether I worked for them about 18 months. But including the time I worked part time and I worked part time for them for a while while I was working for J. C. Tracy.
Mr. HUBERT. What was J. C. Tracy?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is a cannery in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. So that during one period you were working two jobs--with Muir McDonald and with J. C. Tracy?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I worked for Muir and McDonald an hour and a half, 2 hours, maybe 3 hours a week.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever work for Ablon Poultry Co.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that was after I was married.
Mr. HUBERT. That was where?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex. At that time I was residing at the Letot Trailer Park with my wife and family.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave Dallas, Oreg, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I went to work there, you mean?
Mr. HUBERT. You had gone to Dallas, Oreg., I think it was in the spring of 1961, wasn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there really about 18 months, right, working for Muir McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. All together.
Mr. HUBERT. When you left Dallas, Oreg., you were not married, were you?
Mr. CRAFARD. The last time I left Dallas----
Mr. HUBERT. No; I am talking about the time you left in the latter part of 1962 or early 1963.
Mr. CRAFARD. I was married June of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. So your wife lived with you for some time in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. For about 6 months we was living in Dallas, Oreg., from June 10 until I believe in December.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you married?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was married in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was your wife from?
Mr. CRAFARD. Originally from Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Her maiden name was Wilma Jean Case.
Mr. HUBERT. C-a-s-e?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had she been married before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her husband's name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Donald Johnson.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times was she married before she married you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the one time.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I met her in Amarillo, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. When? How long before you married?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was in 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. What part of 1961?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the spring, I believe, it would have been in March of 1961.
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Mr. HUBERT. You knew her about 15 months then before you got married?
Mr. CRAFARD. All told; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you working in Dallas at the time you met her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wasn't employed at the time I met my wife.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I met her at the Salvation Army in Amarillo, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing?
Mr. CRAFAD. She was there with her husband Donald Johnson at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. She was living with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When was she divorced from her husband?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was divorced in 1962, I believe, in April, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. All the time you were living up in Oregon with your parents, did you see her or correspond with her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I hadn't saw her for a year.
Mr. HUBERT. You had not seen her for a year when you married her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I had--I went to Dallas, Tex., trying to find her. From Dallas, Tex., I went to Las Vegas, Nev., where I got in touch with her and where we corresponded for a period of about 5 months.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you say that your interest in her as a person to be your wife grew up during this period?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And she agreed to marry you and came up to Dallas, Oreg., to do so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she work while you were living in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; she lived with my parents.
Mr. HUBERT. And so did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any children?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have one child by her. She has a stepson, I have a stepson, her son.
Mr. HUBERT. She had a son by the first marriage?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that son's name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Don Johnson, Billy Don Johnson.
Mr. HUBERT. How old is he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He is 2 years old approximately.
Mr. HUBERT. He is 2 years old now?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was 2 years old in December. He will be 2 1/2.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have a child by her?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; Robert Johnson.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that child born?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was born March 10, 1963--March 2, excuse me.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you move to Dallas, Tex.--let's take it chronologically. What happened after you left, where did you go after you left Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to California, I left Dallas, Oreg., the first day of March 1963. I went to California where I spent the month, spent about 3 or 4 weeks, then I went to Dallas, Tex., where my wife was living. We had a reconciliation.
Mr. HUBERT. Before you tell us about the reconciliation, you had better tell us about the breakup because I don't think that is in the record yet.
Mr. CRAFARD. We--she had left me about 6 months after we married, and I stayed in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. So she left you about December 1962?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, Oreg, for about 6 months after that.
Mr. HUBERT. She was pregnant then, was she not?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, as far as I know; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The child was born in March of 1963.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I will tell you the truth, the doctor has some doubts himself so I couldn't say.
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Mr. HUBERT. I mean she was pregnant when she left is what I mean in December. I think we are thinking about two different things.
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I believe we are thinking about the same thing.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not asking you whether she was pregnant when you married her.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I know that.
Mr. HUBERT. I am asking you whether she was pregnant when she left you in December of 1962, because you have just told us that the child was born in March of 1963.
Mr. CRAFARD. I will put it this way. When the doctor was informed she had a child, her doctor was then informed she had a child, he was very shocked and surprised that she had had a child, and she was his patient in May of 1962. He operated on her in May of 1962. So in other words, there is some doubt as to the fact that the child was mine and actually there is a little doubt as to the child is actually hers.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wish you would explain that latter part. How can there be some doubt that the child is hers?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't really understand it entirely myself. But the doctor that performed the operation when he was informed she had had the child he was very shocked and very surprised that she had had a child. He wouldn't say any reason for being so but he was. But I took him--I had understood from him that she wouldn't be able to have a child for about 2 years after the operation.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the cause of your breakup?
Mr. CRAFARD. That, I do not know.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean she just left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she leave any notes or anything?
Mr. CRAFARD. She didn't leave anything. I went to work on Tuesday morning and come home Tuesday and she was gone.
Mr. HUBERT. With her child?
Mr. CRAFARD. With the boy; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you attempt to find her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I put a tracer on her.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, when you say you put a tracer, what do you mean?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had the law put a tracer out on her.
Mr. HUBERT. As a missing person?
Mr. CRAFARD. As a missing person; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any reports?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you next see her or hear from her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I heard from her in February of 1963. The latter part.
Mr. HUBERT. In what way?
Mr. CRAFARD. She wrote to me and told me that she was going to have the baby, and then in March of 1963 I received a letter in California, my folks had sent down to me, from her saying that she had had the baby and would love for me to come see the baby if I wanted to. And I went to Dallas, Tex. And we had a reconciliation.
Mr. HUBERT. What date did you arrive in Dallas, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, right around the 14th, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Of March?
Mr. CRAFARD. Of March.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any money then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have any other kind of property?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; just a few clothes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say you were. pretty broke?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was she living?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was at that time staying with her mother and father in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. At what location?
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Mr. CRAFARD. At Letot Trailer Park.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?
Mr. CRAFARD. L-e-t-o-t.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr. CRAFARD. On Lombardy Lane.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you live with her then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do, get another trailer?
Mr. CRAFARD. For about a week I lived there with her and her parents. I went to work at the Ablon Poultry and her parents moved away and then for a while her brother and her sister-in-law lived with us; we lived together for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. At Letot's?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is their name?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is John Case, Mr. and Mrs. John Case.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live now?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea of their present address.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you go to work in Dallas, Tex?
Mr. CRAFARD. About a week after I arrived there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. At Ablon Poultry.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work were you doing there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was working in the hanging racks, hanging chickens.
Mr. HUBERT How much were you making there?
Mr. CRAFARD. $1.10 an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did that amount to by the month?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably right around $200, $225, right around there; I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still living with your wife then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to work at the Porter Building Co. in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr. CRAFARD. Harry Heinz Circle.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the outfit called the Valley Office and School Equipment Co?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work for that company?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I did for a little while. It wasn't very long.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Office Building Co. that you were talking about, how long did you work for them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember, I don't even remember working for the company actually.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the first one you mentioned yourself.
Mr. CRAFARD. The Porter Building Co?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. I worked for them for about a month or a month and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. After that who did you work for?
Mr. CRAFARD. We went to Washington, the State of Washington, to Mount Angeles or Port Angeles in the State of Washington.
Mr. HUBERT. About when was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was in May or--it was in June, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "we" you mean you and your wife and your two children?
Mr. CRAFARD. And my two boys.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you travel?
Mr. CRAFARD. We went up by bus.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been able to save any money then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had money when we left there, I had been able to save some then. We stopped in California and I worked for a while 2 or 3 weeks in California.
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Mr. HUBERT. Where did you work?
Mr. CRAFARD. With a carnival. Then we went on up to Port Angeles, Wash.
Mr. HUBERT. Port Angeles?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was there for about 6 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Until what date?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the date.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it was the summer of 1963, wasn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was your wife still with you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; we were together at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What was your next move?
Mr. CRAFARD. The next thing happened she left me again.
Mr. HUBERT. On what date was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't give you a date on that either.
Mr. HUBERT. Well----
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't remember the dates too well.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it was the summer time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; it was in the summer. I believe it was in the latter part of August or the middle of August, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she leave any note this time when she left?
Mr. CRAFARD. She left a note with some friends of ours in Port Angeles, Wash.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the cause of her leaving, did she say?
Mr. CRAFARD. She didn't say.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she leave any forwarding address?
Mr. CRAFARD. She had went to my brother's in Los Angeles, Calif.
Mr. HUBERT. Which brother was that, that is the one in the Army?
Mr. CRAFARD. Crafard, yes, sir; Edward D.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did she stay with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was there about 2 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did she go?
Mr. CRAFARD. He brought her up to my folk's place, I went from Washington down to my folk's place.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. He brought her up to my folk's there, in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a reconciliation again?
Mr. CRAFARD. We tried a reconciliation. It didn't work out.
Mr. HUBERT. So what happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. So subsequently, about 3 weeks later, I left home, my folk's place.
Mr. HUBERT. You left her there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. She had already gone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she was still there over at my folk's place.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean, you left her there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I left her there.
Mr. HUBERT. Judging by the time schedule you had mentioned that would have been around the middle of September, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, I went to California. I went down on the coast and I worked for a Chinese man down there raising strawberries.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was there for about a week. And from there I went to Long Beach, Calif. I went to work on the new Playland down on Long Beach. I was there for about a month, I believe it was. Then I went to Barstow, Calif, where I went to work for produce out there.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the name of that outfit.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was with him for about 3 or 4 weeks, I believe it was.
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Mr. HUBERT. I take it that these jobs simply gave you enough money to live on and save up a little so you could move to the next place?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. After that where did you go?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. What place there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fife Lake, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was there overnight. My sister and brother-in-law, Ingersol lived there, and----
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed overnight there.
Mr. HUBERT. Then where did you go?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went to--down into the southern part of Michigan, I joined another carnival down there.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the carnival.
Mr. CRAFARD. Happyland Amusements.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the owner of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am just trying to think of the name. I can think of the first name but I can't think of his last name.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose you give us that.
Mr. CRAFARD. His first name was Bob. There were two brothers owned it.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was with them for about 3 weeks. We traveled from Michigan to Memphis, Tenn. We played the Memphis Fair.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in Memphis?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was there for 2 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your next move?
Mr. CRAFARD. My next move was, while I was in Memphis I quit them and went to work for Leonard Wood who owned a trabant.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is one of the newest owned rides out, it is a German-made ride.
Mr. HUBERT. Leonard Wood was his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that was in Memphis, Tenn.
Mr. HUBERT. And you joined him really to move, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I made the move with a friend of mine.
Mr. HUBERT. I understood that you were working with the circus or carnival operated by a man named Bob and his brother?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you quit them to join Leonard Wood's outfit.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it was better pay.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay with Wood?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was with them for, I think it was the last 4 days of the fair, about 4 days.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you quit him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Actually I got fired from him. There was a girl there that kept hanging around the ride and we couldn't get rid of her and everybody tried to get rid of her. She thought she was in love with me or something.
Mr. HUBERT. So Leonard Wood fired you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I traveled to Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you travel?
Mr. CRAFARD. With a friend of mine, Mickey Spillane.
Mr. HUBERT. Mickey who?
Mr. CRARARD. Mickey Corday.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell the last name?
Mr. CRAFARD. C-o-r-d-a-y.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you travel?
Mr. CRAFARD. Traveled down in his car.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is he from, do you know?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know where his home is.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to this time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had seen him prior to this time and heard of him prior to this time.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean it wasn't a hitchhike?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I met him at the fairgrounds in Dallas, Tex., or in Memphis.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive straight to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. We drove straight to Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when you arrived in Dallas, what did you do?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to work with an outfit "How Hollywood Makes Movies" setup in the Dallas, Tex., State Fair.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Deke Miles and Bob Craven.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you known them before?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What date was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the date on that. It was the first day of the fair.
Mr. HUBERT. It was the first day of what fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. The Dallas, Tex., State Fair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in the fall of 1963?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much money did you make with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I made $5 a day.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed in the tent. I was night watchman in the tent. They had a lot of props and equipment in the tent.
Mr. HUBERT. In the meantime what happened to your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. To this day?
Mr. CRAFARD. To this day, I found out what had happened later but right now I have no idea where she is at.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did she stay with your parents after you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was there with my parents for about 2 or 3 weeks and then she took a job babysitting. She stayed there for about a week and then she took sick I understand and was in the hospital for about 3 days. Was back with my parents for about a week and then they went to Dallas, Tex. She left the boys with my parents, was in Dallas, Tex., for 2 or 3 weeks, then she went back up home and picked the boys up and the last I had heard of she had went to Cuba, Mo., and left the boys with a woman there in Cuba, Mo., and was paying her to take care of the boys.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you find out all this?
Mr. CRAFARD. This woman in Missouri wrote to my mother, that is how I found out she had been there and my mother told me what had happened when she was still with them.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the last word you heard from your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. What is the last time you heard anything about her?
Mr. CRAFARD. The last time I heard anything about her, had any news or had any knowledge of her whatsoever was about, on Saturday the 7th, March 7 of this year.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know where she is now?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Has she the children?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; she has got the children.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first meet Jack Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I met Jack Ruby about the third day of the Dallas, Fair, at the fairgrounds.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about how you met him.
Mr. CRAFARD. He was backing the--Mr. Craven and Mr. Miles, and he come out there to talk to them.
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Mr. HUBERT. Were you present when they spoke?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was out front when he come out there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to know them or----
Mr. CRAFARD. He knew them. They were acquainted.
Mr. HUBERT. They were acquainted?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You could tell that from the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, they just walked up to each other and shook hands and called each other by the first name.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the substance of the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly the conversation had to do with a twistboard exerciser that Ruby was trying to promote.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, go ahead.
Mr. CRAFARD. And he was there for about a half, 45 minutes that evening, and it was 2 or 3 days later before I saw him again.
Mr. HUBERT. Before you go on, would you tell us how long after you joined the fair did you first see this man Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 2 or 3 days, about 2 days after I joined the fair.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be about 2 days after the fair opened.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the second time you saw him was about 3 days after that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion of seeing him the second time?
Mr. CRAFARD. He came out there to talk to Mr. Miles and Mr. Craven.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you overhear that conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was the purpose of the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Mr. Miles--he had brought some props, a couple of prop chairs, some chairs used for props and a mirror used for a prop to be used.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack Ruby brought that out to them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his interest in this fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any financial interest?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had some financial interest there.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Craven had told me, we had been talking and he told me that Ruby had some financial interest in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate what it was about, how much?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did Ruby put up money?
Mr. CRAFARD. From what I understood he had put up some money.
Mr. HUBERT. How much?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear Mr. Craven or Mr. Miles talk about what percentage he might have in the interests of the project?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; whenever I was around Mr. Craven and Mr. Miles I was pretty busy working most of the time.
Mr. HUBERT. And you lived in the tent all the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any friends in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a few people that I know there.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, at that time there was as far as I knew my brother-in-law, John Case, lived in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. He still did?
Mr. CRAFARD. And there was a few members of the church my wife and I went to still in Dallas there.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Brother Lee Cooksey and Robert Roskydall I believe it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else?
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Mr. CRAFARD. And that was about the only ones I knew around there right then. I met some people during that fair.
Mr. HUBERT. As to these people you have named, how close a relationship did you develop?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just church members together.
Mr. HUBERT. What church was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. General Assembly and Church of the First Born.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?
Mr. CRAFARD. Out North Dallas is all I can give you.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this State fair project called. "How Hollywood Makes Movies," a success financially?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was an absolute failure.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean people didn't flock to it?
Mr. CRAFARD. We went bankrupt, they went broke.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean they closed before the fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; it was only open for about a week. I had heard rumors to the effect that Mr. Craven had wrote a lot of bad checks to start with.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you paid any salary by them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly about all I got from them was expenses. It was supposed to be $5 a day but about all I got was my meals and cigarettes furnished.
Mr. HUBERT. You got money from them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did it actually close its doors and stop operating before the fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; about a week, it only ran about a week.
Mr. HUBERT. And the fair lasted how long?
Mr. CRAFARD. 2 weeks. When they left it was another outfit come in there with a dance band.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say, "come in there," you mean took over the space?
Mr. CRAFARD. Took over the space in the same tent.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay with that outfit?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I stayed with that outfit.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe they even had a real name for it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us some of the people who were connected with it.
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see. I can't even--there was Big Jess, he was one of the big shots around the State fair there.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a musician?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he owns two or three rides on the fair grounds, permanent rides on the Dallas Texas State Fair Grounds.
Mr. HUBERT. How was he connected with the organization that took the place of the other one?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took up the lease, the rent on the tent, on the space, and had this other outfit come in.
Mr. HUBERT. The other outfit I take it was a band?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; musical band.
Mr. HUBERT. How many pieces were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, I believe it was three- and four-piece band.
Mr. HUBERT. How was it supposed to make money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Charged 50 cents to get in.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean to listen to the music?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly listen to the music.
Mr. HUBERT. What else?
Mr. CRAFARD. They had some couples on stage dancing.
Mr. HUBERT. They had some what?
Mr. CRAFARD. They had some couples on stage dancing.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean couples from the audience?
Mr. CRAFARD. At first and then they wouldn't allow them to have couples on the stage from the audience any more so they hired a couple of dancers.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did they hire them from?
Mr. CRAFARD. Girls around the fairgrounds.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they get any from Ruby's place?
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Mr. CRAFARD. One of the girls came out from Ruby's place.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Joy Dale.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dale?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dale. I don't know her real name. Her first name was Joyce from what I understood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize the name Joyce McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was her last name, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But her stage name was Joy, not Joyce?
Mr. CRAFARD. Joy Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a dance did she do?
Mr. CRAFARD. About all she done was worked out front. She would get out front and more than anything just stand around out there. She would come out originally to help this "How Hollywood Makes Movies" setup. They used her as an attraction piece.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby bring her out there then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the first time she came out there I believe Jack brought her out there and introduced her to Miles and Craven.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack have any interest in the second organization?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no. Except that he knew the man who was managing the setup there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have given us his name, I think already.
Mr. CRAFARD. Dusty was the name of the guy who was managing it. He was another carnival, carnie. He was managing it, Jess was backing it but Dusty was managing it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Dusty's last name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he live?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know--let's see, I think his home was somewhere in Ohio.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay with the organization until the end of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He stayed with the organization until the law closed them down.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.
Mr. CRAFARD. The stage dancers got, the last day they was getting, pretty wild.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the last day of the fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the last day they was open. It was 2 or 3 days before the fair closed, they were getting pretty wild.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by that?
Mr. CRAFARD. With their dancing; it was getting real sexy.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't a striptease, was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; more than anything they were using the "Dirty Dog," and it can be made so filthy that it will almost turn a person's stomach if they do it right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do they actually use dogs in this dance?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is a dance called, "The Dog," but they have got what they call, "The Dirty Dog," too.
Mr. HUBERT. How many girls were involved in that?
Mr. CRAFARD. There were two girls and one guy.
Mr. HUBERT. One of those girls was the girl called Joy Dale?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know Joy was just working at the club, Carousel Club at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. She wasn't connected with the show at the fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. She hadn't been out there but about one time after the dance outfit took over.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the names of the girls on the stage?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember their names.
Mr. HUBERT. Had they come from Jack Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. They met them on the fairgrounds. They put an ad and the girls contacted them.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby come around to that second thing?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was around a couple of times.
Mr. HUBERT. A couple of times?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay very long?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I could notice.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he with?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly by himself when he came out there.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, just a couple of times talking to him around the fairgrounds there and he gave me a free pass into his club any time I wanted to go in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not until after the fair closed when I went to work for Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. How much money did you make at the fair altogether?
Mr. CRAFARD. Altogether at the fair all I made was expenses.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understood you had very little when you got there.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when the fair closed you were just about flat broke.
Mr. CRAFARD. I was flat broke.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened after the fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ruby hired me then to tear some lumber down, a stage he had had there at the tent. He bought the lumber out of it and he had me tear that down and clean it up.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, the thing had been closed for 2 days before the fair closed itself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I don't suppose it reopened in any other fashion?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did it take you to do the job that Ruby hired you for?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 4 hours all told.
Mr. HUBERT. And this stuff was moved?
Mr. CRAFARD. Moved to the Carousel Club, downstairs in the Carousel Club where it was stored.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the moving?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; helped move the lumber and clean it up.
Mr. HUBERT. Then your original employment by Ruby was for that job alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. When he hired me he said he had that for me that I could do and then he said I could stay, he wanted me to stay at the club that night, and the next day he talked to me and he had me stay with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about your arrangement with Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly, there was no set salary, any time I needed salary I put a draw slip in the till and take it out of the till.
Mr. HUBERT. What were you supposed to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Help clean the club up, work the lights on the girls on stage, answer the phone calls, answer the phone when he wasn't there. Work on the bar if they needed me or anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did almost anything you were asked to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. What accommodations did they have for sleeping and so on?
Mr. CRAFARD. We had a room with a cot in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose room was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It had been at one time a dressing room for one of the stars he had in there, Jada, a stripper by the name of Jada.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she there when you first went there?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I first went there; yes. At that time I slept in Jack's office.
Mr. HUBERT. Then when you first went to the Carousel you slept in Jack's office?
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Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a cot there, too?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a couch in his office.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first went there it was the day the fair closed or the day after?
Mr. CRAFARD. The day after the fair closed.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't remember the date.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay--strike that. How long did you sleep in Jack's office?
Mr. CRAFARD. For about a week.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you moved into Jada's room?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Or dressing room, that is after she had gone?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, after she had gone.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until you left finally?
Mr. CRAFARD. I left the 23d of November, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. What were your hours there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Any hours. I would just get up, I usually got up about 8 o'clock in the morning and I would be lucky if I would get to bed before 3:30, 4 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. How come you would get up so early?
Mr. CRAFARD. Get the club cleaned up.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn't there a man to help?
Mr. CRAFARD. I took care of that mostly myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Howard who used to do that stuff?
Mr. CRAFARD. Howard was a maintenance man.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just maintenance, upkeep of the building.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't do the actual janitorial work?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Cleaning up the cigarettes and that sort of thing?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a young fellow by the name of Andrew who was his assistant manager.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that Andrew Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. When I first went there, Andrew was doing the cleaning up and then I started helping him, and then I had been there for about 2 weeks and I was doing all the cleaning up by myself.
Mr. HUBERT. The club usually closed you say about 2 or 3 in the morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the club usually closed, I believe it was 1:30 or 2 o'clock in the morning the club closed.
Mr. HUBERT. You would get to bed about 2:30 or 3 o'clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. Before everybody got out of there it would be 2:30, 3 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you went to bed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went to bed.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did the cleaning up job usually take?
Mr. CRAFARD. If I started cleaning up at 9 o'clock I would be finished by 11:30.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had 2 1/2 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you then usually free?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Jack would come in about 11:30 and be there 2 or 3 hours. After he left I had to stay there and answer the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. The club wasn't open then, was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, the club didn't open until 7:30 at night.
Mr. HUBERT. So your duties were to clean up as soon as you got up and that took 2 1/2 or 3 hours and then just to stay there answering phone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to eat?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time I eat at the Walgreen drugstore catercornered across the street.
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Mr. HUBERT. And you say you just took some money out of the cash register for that purpose?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack permit you to do that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, he told me; otherwise, I wouldn't have done so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any limitation on how much to take?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did it amount to?
Mr. CRAFARD. It usually amounted to $4, $5, maybe $6 a day, what with my cigarettes and what I ate.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any time off for yourself at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of nights after the club closed we went out to, he took us out to, the Vegas Club. We were out there until about 3 o'clock in the morning. And I had a couple of times I could, Andy was around the club and I could take off in the afternoon if Andy was around the club.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of keeping you around the club after your cleanup job was over?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I understand just mostly answer the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there many phone calls to be answered?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was quite a few that would come in--generally, usually, people calling in, would start calling in about 1 o'clock for reservations.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack give you any instructions as to how you could handle the phone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. He told me to answer the phone and ask them what they wanted, and if they had a message for Jack so they could give me a number for him to call back. If they had a reservation, how to take a reservation.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to make notations about it?
Mr. CRAFARD Yes, I had a notebook there at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when he called in you would just tell him who had called?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he sometimes give you instructions as to things you were to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not unless it was--a couple of times he told me to feed the dogs or something like that--when he would call in, he would ask me if I fed the dogs.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were they kept?
Mr. CRAFARD. They were kept in a room behind the kitchen area, a storeroom.
Mr. HUBERT. How many were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I first went there he had two dogs at the club and then his Sheba that he kept with him all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. You say when you first went he had that many dogs, did that change during the time you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. About a week before the assassination, a man that he had given the dog to brought the dog back and Jack gave me instructions to check the freight prices to California, a friend of his out there had wanted the dog, and he was going to send it out there. So he gave me instructions to check the freight, how to ship it, and about the crate and food and everything for the dog--to ship it.
Mr. HUBERT. For a period then there were three dogs there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that dog ever shipped to California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not while I was there; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the man's name was who the dog was to be shipped to in California?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what place in California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Los Angeles, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You had to check that to get the rates?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever seen that man to whom it was to be shipped?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not as far as I--I am not positive I had seen him.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea you might have seen him?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a couple of friends of Jack's there from California while I was there and it might have been one of them.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know their names?
Mr. CRAFABD. No; I don't remember their names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when they were at Jack's place?
Mr. CRAFARD. As I say, I believe it was about the second or third week I was there with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there--you say there were a couple of fellows?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Two or three or how many?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think they come at different times, I believe there was one guy come in one time and then about a week--3 or 4 days later another guy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But they were both there together for a while?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you remember anything about the first man who came?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I couldn't even identify him if he was to stand in front of me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he spend a lot of time around the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He wasn't there too much during the day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he come as a patron or was he working when he was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he came in as a guest of Jack's, a house guest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you introduced to him, ever introduced to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack introduced me to him the day he came in. I don't remember his name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn anything about what he did for a living?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second man who came, were you introduced to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. More likely I was, but I don't recall him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at all what he looked like, the second man?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at all what the first man looked like?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't; I saw so many people around the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second man who came, how long did he stay?
Mr. CRAFARD. Saw him around, I think, two different days, two days in a row that he was in the club with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come at night or during the day?
Mr. CRAFARD. During the day that I saw him. He might have been there at night but I didn't notice him if he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you pick up that his business might have been there?
Mr. CRAFARD. All I figured, all I knew, was that he had come to see Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. You never heard them conversing?
Mr. CRAFARD. When Jack was talking to somebody I pretty much made it a habit to step back where I couldn't hear the conversation.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have done that every since I can recall. When I was younger I worked for a fellow and he started talking to somebody and I would stay right there and he got kind of angry a couple of times; so, since then, I have made it a habit to step back where I can't hear the conversation that is being held.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear from Andy Armstrong or anybody else anything about either of these two men?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes the visit of these two men a part of your memory now?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just that it was shortly before he had the dogs brought back to him, and he asked me to make arrangements to ship them to California. I believe they were from Los Angeles.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the fact that you were making preparations to ship the dogs to California, and that they were from California, is the fact that causes you to associate the two, and to remember those two men?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
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Mr. HUBERT. Is that all?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is all I can think of causing the association.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, Larry, if at any time Jack had a photographer at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he did for publicity purposes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where that photographer was from?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any--how long was this photographer there?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was around there for 3 or 4 days in the evening before the show was going on. I believe he was from a magazine.
Mr. HUBERT. Was his name Eddie Rocco?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this one of the two men you have been talking about from California or were these two men different, from California?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall; it might have been. He might have been from California. But these two men were not photographers. They come in, it looked to me, it appeared to me to be businessmen, fellows----
Mr. HUBERT. Did they have long conversations with Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not in my presence. Not when they were around the club. They was never in the club with him more than 5 or 10 minutes when they were there.
Mr. HUBERT. What would happen, they would come in and talk to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. They would come in and he might have some phone calls to make or something and they would stay there while he made the phone calls and then they would leave.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they went?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack would go out with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice how long they stayed?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn't know how long they would stay with Jack. He might take off at 11 o'clock in the morning and wouldn't be back all day.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is, do you have any recollection of seeing him leave with one of those men or either of them and then come back with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall him doing so. He might have.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any recollection that having left with one of those men he came back alone and particularly at what time or how much longer did he come back alone, how much later did he come back alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no recollection of that either. He was--people would come to the club to see him, he would go downstairs, leave with them, and sometimes he would be gone the rest of the afternoon or sometimes he would come back.
Mr. HUBERT. What we would like you to tell us is, what there was about these two men from California that makes their visits there still a part of your memory.
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the fact that shipping the dogs to California, I kind of more or less associated the fact and that they were from Los Angeles.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever gather where they were staying while they were in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Who usually woke you up in the morning over there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would usually call me in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Anywhere from 8 o'clock on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other way of waking up?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not unless Andrew would come by.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there an arrangement that one of them would wake you so you might commence your work?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would usually call me in the morning as soon as he got up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Armstrong call you sometimes?
Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times Andy would call me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack introduced me to him at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there often?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was there about six or seven times that I can recall. I believe he was a business associate of Jack's.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you find that out?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a drive-in setup, drive-in cafe.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was out northeastern Texas, somewhere, Dallas, northeastern part of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say Jack told you he had an interest in it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack said they were associated. He called him his partner all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the man come on particular days of the week or just at random?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Never knew when he was going to come.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack give him any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to state then that all you know about whether Paul was or was not an associate is what Jack told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You observed nothing of your own that would indicate that the man had some property interest in that club or some financial interest?
Mr. CRAFARD. Other than the fact that when he did come Jack and him would go into the office, almost every time he would come they would be in the office, from a half hour to 2 or 3 hours at a time talking.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn't know about what?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I didn't know about what.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack keep any books?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of books did he keep?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know it was just his receipts and regular tax, regular books, business books.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean ledgers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who made the entries in them?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either Jack Ruby or Andrew. He had an accountant do all his bookkeeping.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember who he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was over the place one time while I was there during the day.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He asked for the books?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy give him some papers.
Mr. HUBERT. Papers or books?
Mr. CRAFARD. Some of the the receipts, bar receipts and door receipts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack and Ralph Paul go over any books together?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I just says whenever they was together like that they would be together in the office, the office door would be locked and they would do talking. It was usually during when--during the evening when the club was in operation and I would be out front.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Eva Grant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was Jack Ruby's sister.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to meet her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I first met her at the fairgrounds, Jack first introduced me at the fairgrounds and then later I met her at the club.
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Mr. HUBERT. How often did you see her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I saw Eva about four times.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to know her as a person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not too well.
Mr. HUBERT. On those four occasions how long were you in her company?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just for a few minutes at a time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she have any interest in Ruby's affairs?
Mr. CRAFARD. She managed the Vegas Club for Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she have an interest in the Carousel so far as you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I know; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack never told you that she did?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; as far as I knew the Carousel Club was Jack's as far as I knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a physical description of her, how tall was she, how heavy was she?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is an oldish woman, probably weighs maybe 130, 135 pounds, stands probably right around 5'6", I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So she is not a heavy woman?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not exceptionally heavy, no. For her age she is a real nice-looking woman.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know her age?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know her age?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, but I believe she is Jack's older sister.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get that information, from Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, from the way he talked. He had one older sister and a younger sister, and I met the family, the rest of his family at the trial and the other sister was younger than Jack, I knew that.
Mr. HUBERT. You have been to the Vegas, haven't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes; I was in the Vegas Club on several occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two nights that I run the Vegas Club myself. One night I was the only one there. The next night I had a waitress there with me.
Mr. HUBERT. You stated that she was the manager of the Vegas Club for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get that information?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack said she was managing the club for him.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you there when she was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was there a couple of evenings after the Carousel Club closed we went over there to Vegas Club and she was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of George Senator?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was a friend of Jack's he was with Jack quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, how often?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would come into the club with Jack three or four times a week anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean when they would come in at night or in the afternoon this man Senator would be with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be maybe during the day or maybe in the evenings.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us a description of him?
Mr. CRAFARD. He is a kind of heavy-set fellow about 5' 4", 5' 5".
Mr. HUBERT. A very short man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fairly short. Wasn't much taller than Jack. He probably would, I would say, probably would weigh about 180, 185.
Mr. HUBERT. Fat or husky?
Mr. CRAFARD. Kind of on the fat side.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a limp?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he did, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything else about the relationship between him and Jack?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I believe him and Jack, he was rooming with Jack, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever at Jack's apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was over to Jack's apartment on two different occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see then any evidence that they were living together?
Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I knew for certain when I was over there was a two-bedroom apartment living room, kitchen and two bedrooms and he told me that one bedroom was George's room.
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby told you that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see George at the apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You only went there twice?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I was there three times all told. I was there for a few minutes and then leave.
Mr. HUBERT. And you never saw Senator at the club--at the apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Senator had any financial interest in Jack's affairs?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he work for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was on the door a little bit, several times.
Mr. HUBERT. What does working on the door mean?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took the door price, he took the cover charge at the door.
Mr. HUBERT. How about a man named Bill DeMar, do you know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Bill DeMar was a comedian.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. He came in while I was there, Jack hired him to come in.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he was there yet when the club was closed, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a fellow was he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was kind of an easygoing guy. Like most of your real good comedians, he was cracking a joke all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I gather from what you have told us about your life you can size these people up pretty well.
Mr. CRAFARD. I haven't only been wrong with my opinion once. I formed an opinion of a person with the first six or seven words they say and I have never been wrong in my life but once.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you think of Bill DeMar as to his truthfulness?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was a kind of a likable guy but to me he just didn't strike me, I didn't like him. I got along with him, I associated with him at the club but I wouldn't want to associate with him as a close friend.
Mr. HUBERT. What was there about him----
Mr. CRAFARD. He didn't strike me just right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he is a fake?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I think 90 percent of him was fake, I would say. He was a fairly decent comedian but his way was "Big me and little you. I am everything and nobody else is anything," was the way he struck me.
Mr. HUBERT. He was there about how long?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was there for about 2 weeks, I am not sure, between 2 and 3 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get to converse with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. While he was there in the club I would speak with him, talk with him a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. There was never any trouble between you, was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, there was never any trouble between us. I say he was an easy-going person.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Joyce McDonald around there, the girl you previously identified?
Mr. CRAFARD. Joy was working on the stage.
Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was a stripper.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the relationship between her and Jack, do you know?
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Mr. CRAFARD. That of boss and employee.
Mr. HUBERT. You never observed anything else?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. She was with him a lot, though, personally?
Mr. CRAFARD. She would talk with him around the club that I could see. She would talk with Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't she go out to dinner with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Some time?
Mr. CRAFARD. She might have. I heard Jack make the remark at one time that he had been involved with every one of the girls that worked for him at one time.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard him say that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He made the remark to me, because of one of the waitresses worked for him was a real sweet-looking girl and she had a real wonderful personality.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Marge, that is the only name I know her by, I don't know her last name.
Mr. HUBERT. She was a stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was a waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. So what about Marge?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. What about Marge?
Mr. CRAFARD. I said something, going out with her or something and he made the statement that he had had a relationship with everyone of the girls who worked for him.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say relationship or when he said it, you did understand him to refer to sexual relationship?
Mr. CRAFARD. Sexual relationship.
Mr. HUBERT. There can be no doubt about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you infer from that remark of his relative to the remark you had made about your interest in Marge?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it would--my remark had been on the sexual basis.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you regard that as sort of a consent on his part for you to go ahead?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. He didn't want me to go, to have anything to do with any of the girls that worked for him.
Mr. HUBERT. So that in effect he was telling you that he was the one who was to have the sexual relationships with the girls and not anyone else?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is about the effect of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say it as clearly as that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he didn't say it in so many words, but just an implied statement.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the meaning you got out of that colloquy, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us as best you can remember what the conversation was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know. I said something about I would like to get ahold of that or something, and Jack said, he said, he had already gotten into it or something like that, and something said about his girls, and I said so far as I am concerned--at that time it was a little later after I went to work for him--I said, "As far as I am concerned you haven't got a stripper I am interested in," and he said, "I have had a relationship with every one of them."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think Jack was puffing on that or did you believe him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know. As far as the strippers went I can very well believe that but the waitresses it was pretty hard to believe because little Marge, she ended up marrying a guy, and she was pretty stiff on him, and in fact, so much that I have tried everything I could to get her even to go out with me and she wouldn't do it. And the other girls didn't seem too much to me like the type that would do so.
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Mr. HUBERT. You did have a girl you went out with you used to meet at the Eatwell?
Mr. CRAFARD. One of the girls who worked for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. She went to work for him later, I can't even remember her name now. The only one of the bunch I can remember, there were three girls there roomed together, the only one I can remember is Norma, and I first got acquainted with her was over the telephone and we had quite a conversation, and we became rather friendly over the telephone and when we met we was fairly friendly.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she work for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Jack tried to get her to work as a stripper which he would do with every female, every nice looking girl, that he met. She would have nothing to do with it.
Mr. HUBERT. So you had this conversation with her on the telephone? Did you get to meet her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I met her at the club; yes. I met her in person and then I got to know her fairly well. We was together several times.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean on private dates?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it would be her and these other two girls. I was with the other girl mostly, and we would go over together and three of us sit together while we eat, and I would walk the girls home, something like that. They would come to the club and the club would close and I would walk this other girl home.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there were two girls who worked for the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; only one worked for the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that, it was not Norma?
Mr. CRAFARD. Norma.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't remember that girl's name. I can't remember the girl's name. She was a woman of about 29 years old, she had a real nice personality and was a wonderful person to talk to, all it was, just nice person to talk to and relax and just have an enjoyable time away from the club.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the one who was the waitress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; she was a cocktail waitress at the club. I knew her and her one girl friend were from back east somewhere and I met Norma back at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Had Norma ever worked for the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Jack was trying to get her to work for the club, was trying to get her to work as a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Norma the girl you dated or saw quite a bit of?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw her on two or three occasions before this other girl went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Norma is not a native of Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is a native of the Dallas area. Her home is about 20 miles north of Dallas, Carrollton, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever go out there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I never went out there.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was out there? How did you find out?
Mr. CRAFARD. She give me her address, address and phone number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have that in the book you maintained for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was the reason for getting the phone and address. She called and inquired for a job, and I got her address and phone number which I do with all girls who come for a job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know Jack tried to get her to be a stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had her at the club on several occasions talking her into being a stripper. He got her a job with Ralph Paul and he give her clothes and he gave her money and I went over with her to one store where to buy clothes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack bought her the clothes?
Mr. CRAFARD. He give me the money to buy the clothes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much was the amount?
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Mr. CRAFARD. $10 bill, I believe, at that time. Two or three times he bought clothes for the girl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ten dollar bill?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She couldn't buy much with a $10 bill.
Mr. CRAFARD. She needed certain kinds of clothes, slacks and a blouse to work in when she went to work for Ralph Paul.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what work she had been doing before she came to work for Paul?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; all I know she had been on several occasions in the club with Jack. They were pretty thick for a while, and then something happened between them to where she wouldn't have anything to do with Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know what it was that happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I have no definite knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have an opinion; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us an idea?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was making a big play for her, and my opinion is he got out of hand and she put a stop to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything else said by someone else that led you to believe it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly she referred to it. She inferred it happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would be getting out of hand in that situation, would it be simply Jack wanting to go to bed with her or would it be some unusual kind of sexual relations?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I would say wanting to go to bed with her as far as my knowledge. From what I knew of Norma she was a pretty decent girl. She was a little wild but she was a fairly decent girl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a girl would you say she was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Norma was 18. She was a very friendly person, easy to like.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a girl who worked at the Eatwell Restaurant that you dated?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did go to the Eatwell Restaurant on Main Street, I think it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was on Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. Commerce.
Mr. CRAFARD. I went there most of the time for my meals. It was, meals were cheap, nice place to go to, it was close, and I sat around there and joked with the girls and the one guy who worked in there I got acquainted with him a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. How many girls in the club went there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe the girls in the club went there to eat often.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Huey Reeves?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name isn't familiar to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it help you if I suggested that he worked at the Nichol's Garage next door?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be the colored boy, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. No; this was a white man.
Mr. CRAFARD. On a couple of occasions I sat in there and talked to him a couple of nights. We would sit in there and talk, maybe have a beer or two.
Mr. HUBERT. Beer or two where? At the Eatwell?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the garage. In the office.
Mr. HUBERT. While you were there, who do you think were Ruby's best friends other than his business acquaintances?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, man, the man I seen him with mostly was Senator, that I know of him being was Senator, and Ralph Paul.
Mr. HUBERT. What about girl friends?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had one girl, I believe her name was Linda or something, she was a blond, she was a real nice looking girl that he went with quite a few times.
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Mr. HUBERT. Was she a stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she didn't work for him.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know her first name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of her name. I don't recall her name. Names is something to me that doesn't mean much. I meet so many people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the two fellows who ran the Eatwell Restaurant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not too well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a couple of older men?
Mr. CRAFARD. One older man that worked behind the counter in the evenings.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack also eat at the Eatwell?
Mr. CRAFARD. He didn't eat there when I was there with him, after I went to work for him. I understood the guy knew Jack real well, in fact he got in the habit of calling me Jack Ruby, Jr., or Little Ruby, in a kind of teasing manner. He was a very friendly person.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the older man?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was an older man; I believe the oldest man that I saw there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall his name, first name, do you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't recall his first name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was one of the fellows in there called Jimmy, that you recall?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall. There is one of those messes of pictures I would like to get hold of. There is one side of them I would just as soon get ahold of and tear up.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. HUBERT. You previously mentioned that there was a girl that Jack went out with socially.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did I understand you correctly that you said she did not work at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. How often did he go out with her, to your knowledge?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know how often. It was quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. How would it come to your attention that he was going out with her?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, usually he would bring her in to the club with him before they would go, and after his club closed he would take her out to dinner.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go out to dinner with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion, I was at the Vegas, we went over to the Vegas Club, and then the three of us went afterwards and had dinner.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know other than that one occasion when he went out with her that he took her to dinner?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would say that they was going to be taking her out to dinner.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see her at his apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever indicate in any way that she did go to his apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. I am going to show you what I am marking five photographs on which I am writing as follows: "Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-A, Deposition of C. L. Crafard." And I am signing my name below there. On the next picture I am also marking, "Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-B, Deposition of C. L. Crafard," and I am placing my name below that. The third picture I am marking "Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-C, Deposition of C. L. Crafard," and signing my name below that. On the fourth picture I am marking "Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-D, Deposition of C. L. Crafard," and marking my name down on that; and on the fifth picture I am marking "Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-E, Deposition of C. L. Crafard" and signing my name.
(The pictures referred to were marked Exhibits Nos. 5200-A through E for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I ask you to look at the pictures which have been marked for identification as follows: Exhibits 5200-A, 5200-B, 5200-C, 5200--D, and 5200-E, and I ask you if in any one or all of those pictures you can see the girl
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we have just been talking about, to wit, the girl that Jack took out to dinner and otherwise met socially?
Mr. CRAFARD. Her picture is in every one.
Mr. HUBERT. Her picture is in every one?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you identify the one that you are talking about by referring to her dress?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Exhibit A it would be the middle girl wearing a red and white striped dress.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember if it was red and white?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't remember the color, but it seems to me it would be a stripe, something that people would wear.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember ever seeing that girl in a red and white dress similar to that dress?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was in the club one time with a red and white checkered dress on.
Mr. HUBERT. Not stripes like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. It was a softer----
Mr. HUBERT. So your remark that it was red and white was inadvertent, or do you really have any recollection?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be an inadvertent remark.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Go on to the next picture and call off the identification mark when you speak of it.
Mr. CRAFARD. Exhibit B, it would be the girl, in the middle in the striped dress.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. In Exhibit C it would be the girl behind Ruby looking over his shoulder in the striped dress. Exhibit D it would be the girl behind Ruby looking over his shoulder with the striped dress. Exhibit E would be the girl in the middle with the striped dress.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize Ruby in all of these pictures, too?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the other girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. The other girl was one of the strippers in his club.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. That girl you have identified in all those pictures as having the striped dress, that is the girl you are talking about whom Ruby used to take out socially?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you don't know her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Could I say that other girl is Kathy Kay, I am definite of that after looking at her picture closer.
Mr. HUBERT. The blond girl is Kathy Kay?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So you want to change your opinion expressed a moment ago that it was Tammi True, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the taking of this segment of the deposition dealing with the identification of these photos, I think you had looked at at least one of these photos and could not recognize the girl that you have now recognized as being the companion of Ruby.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As being such. Then later you have come to the conclusion that it is the girl. Can you tell us why you have now come to the conclusion that it is the same girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. After looking at the whole group of pictures and the different angles of her head where you can see her features better, I came to the con- clusion that is the girl.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you first expressed doubt as to whether it was, you were looking at one picture only?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. And after having looked at all of those pictures, that is to say five of them as identified, you now are positive that that is the girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say you had at least one occasion on which you actually had dinner with Jack and this girl is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be fair to say you were in her company therefore and could see her at close range for a period of at least an hour on that occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know who she is?
Mr. CRAFARD. I cannot recall her name, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would give some thought to what her name is before you leave so perhaps we can----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to write her name down any place for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe her name was wrote down, I believe her name was wrote down in the notebook.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the little notebook you were keeping for him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, what other friends did you note that Ruby had? You mentioned George Senator, and you have mentioned this girl who was in the striped dress in the Exhibits 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E. Who else do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ralph Paul.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have told us something about him.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a couple of the comedians from some of the other clubs that came up to the club quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn't know their names.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any others than those you have already mentioned?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can name; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you at the club from the time you first went there until the time you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Approximately 6 weeks to a month or 2 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any members of the Dallas police force there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us something about that.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the uniformed patrolman would come up every once in awhile in the evening and have coffee on the club.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say on the club, you mean without paying for it?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I on several occasions--I on several occasions served the coffee for them.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally you would collect for that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean normally you would collect from another patron.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn't collect from the police?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack told me to go ahead and they could have coffee whenever they wanted.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did not ask any money for the coffee because you had been instructed not to by Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. The girls had told me that they was allowed to do so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. The waitresses.
Mr. HUBERT. The waitresses?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. Jack never did mention the subject to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing he ever mentioned was that the policemen went off duty, would come in there when they were off duty, got their drinks at a cut price.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the cut price?
Mr. CRAFARD. The normal price was 60 cents, and they got them for 40 cents.
Mr. HUBERT. That you say is when they were off duty?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions as to what the price was to be when they came in on duty?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was no charge for the coffee, and none would drink anything other than coffee, to my knowledge, when they were on duty or maybe a Coke or--a glass of Coke or a glass of 7-Up.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they identify themselves when they were off duty so that they got the cut rate?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, most of them when they come in there, when they come to the door they got in the door free so they showed a card at the door, their identification at the door. And then it usually would be at the bar, the girls knew most of them that did come in there when they were off duty. Evidently I took it that Jack had introduced them as officers, and we had occasion one night to serve one of the gentlemen, we was talking, and one of the girls when I took over the bar from Andy, he had to leave early, and he told me this gentleman was a police officer. He said he only charged him 40 cents. So I had occasion to talk with them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to know any by sight?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I could--just when he walked in the door and say he was a police officer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know any by name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of those policemen at the Ruby trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall it, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different policemen would you say came in to Ruby's place during the period you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. When they were off duty, to my knowledge, there was only about 4 or 5 of them would come in there, off duty, and it was usually the same ones that were on duty that would come in to have coffee, patrolmen. The others were usually plainclothesmen, detectives.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what bureau any of them were attached to?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there were any of them attached to the juvenile bureau?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not definitely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have some thought that they were?
Mr. CRAFARD. You mentioned the juvenile bureau, it seems to me there was something mentioned about one of them being from the juvenile bureau or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this something you read in the paper, or something that was mentioned at the club.
Mr. CRAFARD. No, something that was mentioned at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby follow a pretty close routine of life insofar as his activities were concerned?
Mr. CRAFARD. For him, yes. His routine was for myself, or for any ordinary businessmen that I have known, any businessmen that I have known, would have been a real rough, hurry-scurry routine.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's take it timewise. For instance, you say he usually called you in the morning. Was that pretty routine?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that varied.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that he came in usually sometime before noon.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that pretty regular?
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Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time he would be in before noon, between 10:30 and 12 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what would he do with the rest of the day?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he would be around the club for maybe anywhere from a half hour to 2 hours, then he would leave the club and I might not see him again until midnight.
Mr. HUBERT. And then he stayed until the club closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. When he came back to the club after the club opened he generally stayed until the club closed. On three or four occasions he stayed until the club closed and then he went over to the Vegas Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally what would he do?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would go over to the Vegas Club and pick up the receipts for the day.
Mr. HUBERT. And then what?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, go home maybe stop for a bite to eat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he do with the receipts?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would carry them home with him and the next day bring them back to the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; he bought a safe while I was with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was about 2 weeks prior to the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to come to buy that safe?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he was always carrying quite a bit of cash and he was always worried about having somebody rob him or something, and I guess he wanted, he finally made up his mind to buy a safe and he went down to buy a safe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I was with him when he purchased the safe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where he went?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall the name of the company.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts was it located?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, it was a block and a half right straight behind the Carousel Club, but I can't recall the name of the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It would have been on Field?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, Commerce--Field is next to Commerce, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. It was the next block back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a----
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a furniture, office furniture supply house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, how big a safe was it that he bought?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a wall safe, a floor safe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how high would you say that it stood off the floor?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 18 inches tall. The common type that is poured in the cement in the floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this poured in the cement?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could somebody, if somebody had broken into the building, could they have carried this safe away?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. The safe was in his office and the office was always locked and I was there all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But when you weren't there, if somebody had gotten into the building, and had broken into the office, why they could have carried this out?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; they could have carried this out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have the combination of the safe?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; Mr. Ruby and Andy was the only ones who had the combination.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After he bought this safe did he use it to keep his money in?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge he only used it for the night receipts from the Carousel Club and Andy when he checked out if Jack wasn't there, the safe had
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a compartment in the bottom they claimed was a burglarproof compartment in the bottom, had an envelope slot in it and he would drop an envelope with the money in it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would be done with the money at the end of the night? What would he do with the money?
Mr. CRAFARD. The next day Jack would take the money out and count it up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he do with it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would put it in his pocket and go to the bank.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he bank some place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he bank?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the First National, but I am not positive of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually go with him to the bank when he----
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not when he was banking the deposits.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the end of, on a typical week night, about how much money would he have left, would he have at the end of the night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, a typical night would maybe be anywhere from a $100 to $500 or $600.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, he had more business on the weekends than he had during the week, didn't he?
Mr. CRAFARD. Usually; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just taking the nights Monday through Thursday, how much would he typically have on one of those nights?
Mr. CRAFARD. Between $100 and $300, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. That is gross, isn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On a weekend night, on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday night how much would be take in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Anywhere from $100 to maybe $1,000. Depending on the type of what was doing there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there any nights that he took in $1,000?
Mr. CRAFARD. The most I have ever known him to take in was one weekend, Friday and Saturday night, I believe it was $1,400 for the 2 nights.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would usually be around when they counted the money up, and that weekend, I believe Sunday we was talking and Andy said something about that is the most money they took in any weekend for the last year or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he deal with any particular distributor of beer?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the company that----
Mr. CRAFARD. He dealt with the different companies, one being the Pearl Beer, each different brand of beer had different distributors.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had its own distributors?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about liquor, did he buy hard liquor?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, there was no hard liquor sold in the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So his only purchases were beer?
Mr. CRAFARD. Beer, coke and champagne.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he buy that from?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of that was bought to my knowledge from the liquor store on the corner. I believe it was Segalis.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much champagne would he stock any one time?
Mr. CRAFARD. When he bought champagne he would usually buy a case of 12 bottles and it would usually average about two cases a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did they serve food?
Mr. CRAFARD. The only food we served was pizzas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was pizzas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Pizzas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were those made at the Carousel or were they sent out from those----
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Mr. CRAFARD. We got those from Palumbo's Pizza House. All you had to do was stick them in a warmer and warm them up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So his only expenses--tell me if you can think of any other expenses besides the one I recite here. He had the expenses of his entertainers, he had expenses for you and Andy Armstrong, he had rent and heat and light, and he had beer and pizza. Did he have any other expenses that you can think of?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I would say would be Carousel business expenses, no. He had a lot of sinking money into things all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things were those?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he was putting quite a bit of money into this twist board exerciser that he was promoting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any other promotions besides the twist board while you were with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall. He would buy records and he had to buy flashbulbs and film for the camera. He took Polaroid pictures every night, three of them each night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Three Polaroid pictures each night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; we had one girl who was, I believe it was Tammi True, would get on the stage and she would get a guy up there with her on the stage and take a picture of them and and give the picture of the man, that was the only photograph taken and that would go right to the man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what other business, you say he was always sinking money into things.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he had the Vegas Club and from what I understand he was taking money from the Vegas Club to keep the Carousel Club from what I understood which I never could figure out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why couldn't you figure that out?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, we always made enough to clear our bills, the Carousel made enough to clear the bills.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By the bills you include the salaries of the entertainers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of that, yes. He was paying pretty good salaries. These girls got anywhere from $300 to $400, maybe $400, $500 a week for their enterraining.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They all didn't get that much.
Mr. CRAFARD. The entertainers, got anywhere from $300 to $500, $600 average, different.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that just the featured stripper or was that each stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jada was there, I believe, she was drawing $700 a month and the other girls I think was drawing between $300 and $500, somewhere between $300 and $500.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A month?
Mr. CRAFARD. A month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A month. How about "Little" Lynn when she came to work there, was she getting paid the same as the rest of them?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe so, I am not sure. I don't know what her wages were, I am not sure, positive about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than the twist beards and the Carousel and the Vegas Club what other things was Jack putting money into?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge that is all he had. He never seemed to have any. He always claimed he was going broke all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he actually selling these twist beards?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had never had made any sales while I was with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Before you get into this, let me finish up this financial operation. I don't think you have mentioned what the waitresses got.
Mr. CRAFARD. The waitresses worked on tips.
Mr. HUBERT. Purely? There was no expense in connection with that?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Armstrong got any salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. He got a salary.
Mr. HUBERT. How much was it?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. I think he was drawing about $300 a month, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Then there was a man Howard. the maintenance man.
Mr. CRAFARD. Howard just got paid, whenever he worked he would get paid, I think a dollar an hour. He didn't work all the time. He might only get 4 or 5 hours a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much would you estimate in a typical week Ruby took in?
Mr. CRAFARD. In a typical week it would be anywhere from one to three thousand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where these twist boards were manufactured?
Mr. CRAFARD. They were manufactured in Houston--Fort Worth, I mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the company?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall the name of the company. I had it wrote down but I don't recall the name of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of a company called Plastolite Engineering.
Mr. CRAFARD. I remember something about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But that wasn't the name of the company that was manufacturing the twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been, I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How was Jack trying to sell these twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. Like I say, he promoted them out at the fair--State Fair, and he had a couple of different stores promoting them, and he had----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean they would be on display some place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. And there was some set up, where some of the strippers went out to one place and done the twist on these twist exercisers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But to your knowledge he never made a sale on one?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much would one cost, if you wanted to buy it?
Mr. CRAFARD. The way he was selling them I believe it was two something. They were selling them in Texas but it was Penney's, I believe it was Penney's store was selling them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Texas, you mean in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas. They were selling them for $3.95 apiece, I think it was and he was selling his for $2.95 apiece.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have anybody else associated with him in these twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was trying to get his one brother to do something with them, and I believe it was in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been Hyman?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been Hyman in Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was "Hy," yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know he was trying to get "Hy" interested in it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had me send some to him.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you have testified to that you have been around carnivals and you have met a lot of people, and also I think you said that you form an impression of an individual pretty quickly and have found in your own experience you have only been wrong once, I think.
Mr. CRAFARD. I have been wrong twice that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT, I would like you to tell us what your impression was of Ruby, and if you can, give us some factual examples and reasons, you know.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, first he was a kind of a likable person. He was kind of impressable. I mean he impressed me somewhat. I had one instant feeling, I can't recollect, more or less the way he talked and his actions that the man might be somewhat queer.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "queer" you mean what?
Mr. CRAFARD. As the general usage of the term.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to feel that?
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Mr. CRAFARD. The way he talked and his general action.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he effeminate in his method of speaking?
Mr. CRAFARD. More or less.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a lisp?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What other physical actions that you observed that you think support or supported your view that he might be homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, mostly just the way he talked and mostly the way he walked.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any activity----
Mr. CRAFARD. When I first met him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any activity with his hands or walk or dress?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is it, the way a person walks or moves or uses his hands, involve the appearance of this type of person which I have been in contact with quite a few of them in the type of things I have been doing.
Mr. HUBERT. So the overall impression that you had from his speech and from his movement of hands and his walk gave you the impression that he would fit into the category of people who in your experience were homosexuals?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to change that view?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, at the same time I kind of liked him, and I never really went as far as changing that opinion I never really changed it although he had never made any overtures toward me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him make any overtures toward any man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge, not that I ever saw.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard about some, I suppose?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't. I never heard about any cases where he had.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear people express the view that he was homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not people that I met after I went to work for him. But this friend of mine that met him the same night I did, him and I were pretty well agreed on the subject that he seemed to be quite that type.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that friend?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't even remember his name. He was a carnival worker, he worked at the carnival.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not one of the owners?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a worker.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was not homosexual himself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; he was a pretty straight kid.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you square that off, that opinion of him, with the fact that he was going out with a girl that you have identified in that Exhibit 5200 A, B, C, D, and E?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have known several people of this type that were married and had families.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you didn't think that was inconsistent with your former view, your earlier view?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; as far as being inconsistent with my knowledge of that type of person it isn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that your original impression of Ruby that he might be homosexual still persists to this day?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. Although he was a likable person and I liked him, and I have got one opinion, I don't care, I know for sure if a man is that way if he leaves me alone I can get along fine with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any friends or acquaintances whom you also thought were homosexuals?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which would those people be?
Mr. CRAFARD. George Senator, for one. He was the only one of his friends that I met that I really felt that way about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe Senator so that we can understand why you felt he was a homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. More or less from the way he talked more than anything. It is
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kind of hard for me to explain it because I haven't got the education to use the words.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We don't want it--we, the only reason we are taking it this way is because we don't want to put words in your mouth.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, mostly because of the way he talked, his actions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, when you went into Jack's apartment, did you see anything in that apartment which would lead you to think that he and George were having homosexual relationships?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; just general bachelor apartment more than anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice that one of the beds had been slept in and the other hadn't, for example?
Mr. CRAFARD. I only saw the bed in Jack's room. The other bedroom the door was closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Senator have feminine mannerisms?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly in his speech, at times. It wasn't all the time but at times he would have the mannerisms in his speech, the way he uses his hands.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he giggling or what sort of manners?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, a lot about the way he laughed. He would get to talking about different things and the way his voice would sound more than anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the topics that you heard Jack and Senator talk about. Was there anything about the subjects of conversation that they had which would indicate that they were homosexual or had some sort of.
Mr. CRAFARD. No. The only thing I could say along that line was that they was always together, they were together an awful lot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you able to tell from their relationship whether one of them was performing services for the other whether in the maintenance of the household, for example, one of them was assuming responsibilities or the other wasn't or taking care of clothes or things like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, most of the cooking Jack done 90 percent, most of the cooking that was done in the apartment to my knowledge was done by Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, on a couple of occasions Senator--Jack was billing Senator out because he had cooked something that he shouldn't have cooked or something, that--and it was something he didn't do very often was cook. I can't remember the name, what, everything what was said or everything. But it was to the fact that he didn't cook anything around the place and when he did cook it, the few times he did cook he would cook it wrong or something.
Mr. HUBERT. And you heard that from having heard Jack remonstrate with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that except for the specific examples you have given here your impression of both these men, Ruby and Senator concerning their homosexual tendencies, is based upon your experience with other people of that same type.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other specifics to mention?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be about the only thing I could think of.
Mr. HUBERT. What would you say of Jack concerning his temper, and his reaction to situations?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had an erratic temper.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, give us examples, you know.
Mr. CRAFARD. You never knew something that you thought would blow him up might not bother him, something that you thought would not bother him a bit he would blow up about.
Mr. HUBERT. Like what? I mean that must be based upon something that happened.
Mr. CRAFARD. Like Andy making a goof with regards to the gifts were supposed to work. They took nights off.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us about that so we have it in the record.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the first time it happened Jack got pretty mad about it. The next time it happened, one of the girls was supposed to be there and didn't show up, Jack never said a word.
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Mr. HUBERT. When you say he got mad about it, how did he manifest his anger?
Mr. CRAFARD. Raising his voice, shouting and calling Andy some "stupid."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack swear, use profanity?
Mr. CRAFARD. Very seldom. When he usually did it was usually "hell" or "damn."
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other examples to give us that would throw light upon his temper?
Mr. CRAFARD. One day, I was using a vacuum cleaner and it wouldn't work and something went wrong with it, something like that, the club has got to be clean, you would think the man would be kind of perturbed about it and he wasn't the least bit bothered about it. I would be cleaning the club and he would come in while I was cleaning the club, and he would get pretty perturbed because I was working the vacuum cleaner while he was there and he would yell at me and make me quit cleaning until he had left.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him in arguments with other people?
Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times with, he got pretty perturbed at the M.C.s, the one M.C. because of some of the jokes he was telling, some of the stories.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that, please, start off with the name of the M.C. if you can.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the M.C.s name.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what period of time it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. Working for Jack when I went to work for him. He was working for Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. How many M.C.s worked during that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. About three different M.C.s.
Mr. HUBERT. This was the one who was working when you first went to work with it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had quite a habit of telling racial jokes and Jack was pretty much against this and on several occasions he got pretty perturbed with the M.C. for telling the racial jokes.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say pretty perturbed, you see that doesn't tell us about what he did.
Mr. CRAFARD. To the point where he went in among the chairs right by the stage and was yelling at the M.C.
Mr. HUBERT. So that he could be heard all over the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Very definitely.
Mr. HUBERT. And yelling, by yelling you mean that his voice was raised above the normal?
Mr. CRAFARD. Very much so.
Mr. HUBERT. What was he saying?
Mr. CRAFARD. Telling him, you know, "I don't like that kind of jokes in here." He said, stuff like that.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of jokes were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Racial jokes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well about what race?
Mr. CRAFARD. Colored people.
Mr. HUBERT. About the colored people?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; Jack was against a racial joke of any type, very much so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find that out from him or just from this occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. From these different occasions like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you himself that he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not personally, but from the way he acted on different occasions like that that would happen he would chew the M.C. out pretty good for telling the racial jokes and for some pretty vulgar jokes he told on occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he objected to vulgar jokes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he said that his objection was the club was no place for that real vulgar type of joke.
Mr. HUBERT. By vulgar you mean a joke that dealt with sex?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; joke that would leave no doubt in a person's mind that it was a sexual joke. Some of them that he told were just that type of joke.
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Mr. HUBERT. You mean abnormal sex?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So what he objected to were jokes that had to do with abnormal sex, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, there was, I think on one or two occasions there was, the M.C. told jokes of an abnormal sex, but there was things that were real vulgar jokes where he was cussing a lot or something in a joke he didn't care for too much. He don't like the foul language used in the club very much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--these comedians must have told sexual jokes, didn't they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes; that is one of the things that put a comedian over in that kind of a club; they are there to sell sex, and if they don't tell a sexual joke the comedian is nothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you distinguish for us between the kind of sexual jokes that Jack would be upset about and those he accepted?
Mr. CRAFARD. [Deleted.]
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the type of joke that Ruby objected to?
Mr. CRAFARD. That type of joke would be acceptable because it leaves a person to figure out in his own mind, what the deal is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind would be objectionable?
Mr. CRAFARD. [Deleted.]
Mr. HUBERT. That would be an objectionable joke?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; because there would be no question in anybody's mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a specific example, or one that you were using?
Mr. CRAFARD. An example; the joke was not told in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. From what you have told us as a generalization it would seem to be this, that any joke that left it to the imagination of the listener would be all right with Jack, but if it was specific he objected to it.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. It was pretty well acceptable all over the country that way. You take even with a party joke. If a party joke leaves in a person's mind in most places, leaves it to a person to imagine it themselves, it is acceptable. But if there isn't any doubt it doesn't make it acceptable in a mixed party.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, did you learn anything that would indicate whether Jack's attitude about these jokes was based on any concern about what the local law-enforcement people would feel about having such jokes told in his club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't--I can't think of anything that would make me feel that way.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression of his being perturbed, as the way you put it, was sincere or possibly just part of the act?
Mr. CRAFARD. It seemed pretty sincere to me.
Mr. HUBERT. He never did tell you, man to man, that he objected to these?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack tell any jokes himself?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall of any. I think a couple of times he got on the stage and tried to M.C. and, fell sort of flat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about privately; was Jack the kind of person who would joke and tell jokes?
Mr. CRAFARD. He never did that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of person who would sit around with the comedians and talk with them in between acts and so forth?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Jack was the kind that the only time he would say anything to the comedians was if he done something he didn't like, and if Jack wanted the comedian to do something he would say something to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever notice any traits of physical violence in Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. The one time I noticed any traits of physical violence at all, there was a guy came to the club who was pretty well polluted, and I think Ralph Paul was sitting right near the door, and he started giving the doorman a bad time.
Mr. HUBERT. Who started----
Mr. CRAFARD. This drunk fellow did.
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Mr. HUBERT. Ralph had to get him to leave?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ralph was sitting right there and he asked the gentleman to leave and he wouldn't do it, and Jack went over there and the gentleman struck Ralph Paul and when he did Jack just pushed his arm down and pushed him out the door.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't hit him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you form any impression about Ralph Paul, as to whether Ralph Paul was a homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Ralph was a pretty good, decent guy. I liked him, what little I did know of him. I like him. He was kind of a stuffed shirt, but he was a fair, likable guy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice if Jack's club was visited by any people who would appear to you to be homosexuals?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't notice that. I can't recall of any specific people coming in that would appear to be this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about sex?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; very seldom; one or two occasions when I said something about a girl or something, when I said something about a girl or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his interest in his dogs?
Mr. CRAFARD. Sheba was the only one that really meant a lot to him. He was like a lot of people who are alone, and get with animals.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean he was attached to them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Really attached.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To Sheba?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he breed Sheba?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Sheba had been bred.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this something that he did, or did he send her some place to be bred?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he took her to another place, another place to be bred; I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything, any experience you had which indicated he had any sexual interest in these dogs?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I wouldn't say so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him try to sexually stimulate these dogs?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I ever saw.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear anything in that regard?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now the example you gave us about Ruby putting the man out at the club is the only one that you ever perceived as an act of physical violence?
Mr. CRAFARD. Where he actually used physical violence. I have seen him where he was close to it at another M.C. at one time. Threatened for him to go out or he would throw him out, which was something which occurred every 2 or 3 months with other M.C.'s.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any occasions when you say that Jack handled a situation that could have involved violence but did not?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the situation where he told that M.C. to get out. It could have really involved violence, Jack's just; he was about ready to grab the guy, and he just turned and walked away from him.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack walked away from that man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him hit anybody?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. The only time I even saw him touch anybody was when he got the man's hand and knocked it down.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the comedian bigger than Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; bigger than Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Quite a bit bigger?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How about the patron that he handled?
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Mr. CRAFARD. He was a bigger fellow. He stood about 6 foot. He is quite a bit bigger than I am, even. He was taller and heavier.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about what Ruby did to keep in physical condition?
Mr. CRAFARD. I knew he worked with barbells quite a lot.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He told me about his barbells a couple of times and he was dieting, and I had heard that he went to a gymnasium quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to you to be a powerful man, considering his build and weight and size?
Mr. CRAFARD. For his type of build and flabbiness as he was, he had quite a bit of strength.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean did you observe him in a situation which demonstrated the use of strength?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not really where it would be a real test of strength or anything. I have never seen anything of that sort.
Mr. HUBERT. I was just wondering how you formed the impression that he was a pretty strong man, considering his size.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, for as heavy a man as he was, he was pretty solid for one thing; he was fairly solid.
Mr. HUBERT. You could tell that by looking at him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose you have seen him with his coat off or something.
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw him with just his pants and a T-shirt on, or an undershirt and pants, on one occasion when I went to his house. He shaved and he said something and I stepped over to the bathroom door; I couldn't hear. He repeated it and I stepped back and sat down and watched television and then he went ahead and got cleaned up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he carry a gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had one in the car. He very seldom carried it on his person.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep it in the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Usually in the trunk; it was in a money pouch, a money sack, which usually stayed in the trunk.
Mr. HUBERT. You say he didn't carry it on his person?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see it on his person or know it was there in some way?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; one night that I knew for sure it was there.
Mr. HUBERT. What night was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall the date, but something happened, and Jack sent me down to the car to get the gun and bring it up to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there some trouble in the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember whether it was right in the Carousel or whether it was a phone call or what it was, really. There was something there----
Mr. HUBERT. He told you something that indicated he ought to have the gun, and he asked you to go get it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He sent me down after the gun.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he just simply send you down after the gun, or did he tell you that there was something that had happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. He sent me down after the gun. Something happened right there at the club. I can't----
Mr. HUBERT. Was it some sort of a disturbance?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't recall just what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this an incident that other people would have been aware of; Andy Armstrong might have been aware of?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Andy Armstrong was right there at the time. I believe most any of the girls who worked for him were aware of it at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did I misunderstand you? Did you say this incident where you were sent for the gun was preceded by a phone call?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. He had been on the phone and then he went outside and then something happened at the club; he had an argument or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do after you brought the gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was right there and the club was closed and I didn't see him until the next day. He seemed pretty angry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn't try to throw anybody out?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was George Senator there at the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how close this incident was to the death of the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either a week before or the same week, earlier the same week, that President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a weekday?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. It was during the week.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not on a weekend?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was during the week.
Mr. HUBERT. So it would have been sometime between the 17th, say, of November and prior to the 22d, or it would have been sometime between, the 11th and the 15th of November; is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever noticed any incidents of Ruby that would throw some light on whether he was a person who had a trait of kindness or benevolence toward other people?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was quite kindhearted.
Mr. HUBERT. Give us an example of that.
Mr. CRAFARD. One example was the way he took me in. He had no reason for doing it. He wasn't obligated to do it in any way.
Mr. HUBERT. You think you earned your pay?
Mr. CRAFARD. What is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you earned your pay?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I earned everything I got.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you still think it was an act of kindness on his part to take you in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he was doing me a favor, and still in all he was getting some pretty cheap work, labor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him for the job or did he ask you?
Mr. CRAFARD. He asked me. And then I know of another occasion where I was told about of this young fellow he took in didn't do a thing around the club and he had him around there for 3 or 4 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it seem to you that Jack felt it was important that he have somebody at the club all the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. After I was there for a while he seemed to feel that way. At first, when I first got to know him, he didn't seem to feel that way.
Mr. HUBERT. This boy that had been there more or less doing the job that you did, but was there prior to you; did you know this fellow?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't know him. I had heard--Andy had told me about him.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that you heard from Andy or otherwise there had been some trouble between Ruby and that man?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about trouble.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that you heard that Ruby pistol-whipped him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can't recall of ever hearing that statement.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that this boy was Jewish?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I had no idea; no knowledge of him.
Mr. HUBERT. You never met him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand that there came a time when you asked Jack to put you on a different pay basis than you originally were.
Mr. CRAFARD. When I went to work it was on the understanding that I eventually
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would be with him a little while and then I would start being on a salary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you with him? Well, let me put it this way: Did there come a time when you began to ask to be put on salary?
Mr. CPAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after?
Mr. CRAFARD. Because I felt that the way things were, I didn't have any private life of my own. He wanted to tell me what I could do, who I could talk to, and who I couldn't talk to if he put me on a salary where I was maybe making $35 or $40 a week I could live on my own, which I would much prefer to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. $35 or $40 plus the opportunity to live at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. As long as it was $35 or $40, period. I could live on my own; for the work I done at the club, I could live on my own.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long had you been with Jack before you started to ask him about this?
Mr. CRAFARD. I probably had been with him about 4 or 5 weeks. That was about 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say when you mentiond that to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said he would see what he could do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by that? What did you understand by that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, he said what he could do; he would figure his bookwork out and see what he could do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remind him of the fact that he had told you that at the beginning?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
(Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF CURTIS L. CRAFARD RESUMED
The proceeding reconvened at 1:30 p.m.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Crafard, this is a continuation of the deposition which was recessed for the lunch hour. You understand that we are continuing this deposition by the same authority that we commenced it with, and likewise that you are under the same oath that you were under and that you took at the beginning of that deposition?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that agreeable to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you first hear that the President was going to visit Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 3 or 4 weeks before he came to Dallas. It was advertised in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for Ruby at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; it came out in the papers that showed the proposed route and the proposed secondary route of this trip through the city.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that the first time you found out that he, President Kennedy, was going to visit the city, was when you read it in the newspapers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And that in that account that you read in the newspapers, the proposed route and an alternate route was given?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been just a very few days before he actually came, wouldn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was at least a week before he came that that came out.
Mr. HUBERT. At any rate, whatever day the proposed route came out in the papers that was the first day that you found out that the President was coming to Dallas at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. They had been thinking he was going to come to Dallas. They
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said something about it, but there was nothing definite at that time, I didn't know anything definite about it until I read it in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. You had read something in the paper about his coming prior to the time that the route was set out?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was something in the paper about it figured he would come or something but so far as I can recall there was nothing definite until that same issue.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you ever talk to Ruby about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. There wasn't much said about it in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anything said about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Something the day the paper came out with the proposed route, we all said something about the fact that he was coming to town, Dallas, that it would probably help Dallas a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Help in what way?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe bring a few more conventions or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Who said that?
Mr. CRAFARD. We all discussed it, Andy and Jack and I.
Mr. HUBERT. Including Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember specifically a conference, or conversation, rather, of which there were three, at least, Jack Ruby and Andy Armstrong, at which it was mentioned that it was a good thing for Dallas because it would bring more conventions?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was in the paper, when Jack came to the club we already had the paper there and Jack came to the club and he read the paper and said something about it and then he said something to the effect that it might help Dallas a little bit because it might bring more conventions to Dallas, or something to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the day that the paper came out with the route?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to Ruby about the President's visit prior to that day?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to anyone else?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't let me finish my question. Had you talked to anyone else about the fact that the President might be coming to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall anything about it, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say there was no conversation in the club about it other than what you have testified to----
Mr. CRAFARD. None that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any mention made of the fact that in any conversation between you and Jack or anybody else about the fact that the parade would pass near the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was something said that we only have to walk a block, I think, or something like that, up where we could see the parade.
Mr. HUBERT. Who said that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember whether it was Andy or myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Could it have been Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, either you or Andy made such a remark, and was Jack present when it was made?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You have a distinct recollection of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't have a distinct recollection; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it on the same occasion that you mentioned earlier that he came in and said about how it would improve the business?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the day before the President's trip, arrival in Dallas, Andy and I had been saying something about wanting to see it and some one of us said something about it was only about a block or something like that to go to see it.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Jack's permission to leave to go watch it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think we both told Jack that we was going to go watch it.
Mr. HUBERT. You and Andy did?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Together?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; we didn't figure on going. Andy was taking the day off so he could go and I told Jack I was figuring going on up and watching the parade.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He didn't say anything.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall him saying anything.
Mr. HUBERT. You were asking him----
Mr. CRAFARD. Other than maybe telling me it was all right to go or something.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I was wondering. Did he express any consent or disapproval?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall what he said.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention what he was going to do about watching it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him where you were going to watch it, yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. You recall, of course, the day that the President was shot.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the night before that, which would have been Thursday night?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can recall it was more or less a general night for the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any special preparations by way of preparing for a larger crowd or for some program in connection with the President's visit?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the night prior to the President's visit was a routine night?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose you have put your mind to it since, particularly at the time it happened, because most people did, you know. They relate that historic event to their own lives and reconstruct what they were doing before and afterwards.
Did you do that? Have you ever done that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have tried to think of what I was doing before, the night before, a couple nights before, or something like that. I don't recall anything out of the ordinary.
Mr. HUBERT. If it was the ordinary, then I suppose it would have been that the club were closed up at its usual hour.
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I recall, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were still sleeping there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I was still sleeping there.
Mr. HUBERT. So you would have gone to sleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And then I suppose Ruby would have wakened you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy woke me that morning. He come in early. Andy always put the beer in and he come in early to do that so that he could have the rest of the day off.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did Andy come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was about 9:30 or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Came in personally?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He was there when the President was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you asleep when he came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was asleep when he came in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you waken up when he came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn't wake up---Andy woke me up and told me that the President had been shot.
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Mr. HUNT. That was much later in the day, wasn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. About 12:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Weren't you suppose to be doing your cleaning-up job?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ordinarily if I had been up, I would have been cleaning up; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Ordinarily he would have awakened you when he came in, wouldn't he?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy, when he came in he should have woke me up. I guess he said he had called me or something and I hadn't woke up, I hadn't got up or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't he know you wanted to go and see the parade?
Mr. CRAFARD. He knew I said something about it I don't know, I think maybe he had been down and saw us--down to see some of it or something and then come back to the club or something.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't leave word for anyone to call you to see the parade?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn't it unusual for you to sleep that length of time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not if I was tired and they didn't call me, I'd sleep if they didn't call me.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever done that before?
Mr. CRAFARD. I've seen the time when I went to sleep and slept 14 or 15 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. No, I am talking about while you were at the club.
Mr. CRAFARD. At the club a couple times I slept until 1:30 or 2 o'clock in the afternoon before somebody woke me up.
Mr. HUBERT. You had made no plans yourself to anticipate going to see the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not definite plans except if I got up I figured I'd go down and see it.
Mr. HUBERT. And you intended to get up?
Mr. CRAFARD. I figured I'd wake up. I didn't wake up.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go to bed, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know, about 2:30 or 3 o'clock, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. You slept clean around until 12:30 or after?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know Andy came in earlier?
Mr. CRAFARD. The beer was all taken care of, so I figured he had been in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. You are not sure it was Andy that did that, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Put the beer on?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy said something about doing it, he had done it earlier, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the beer normally delivered at a regular time?
Mr. CRAFARD. We had the beer delivered 2 days a week. Andy come in every day and put the beer in the cooler.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the beer delivered?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was delivered upstairs when it was delivered.
Mr. HUBERT. Did somebody have to receive it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it delivered that day, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was delivered on Tuesdays and Saturdays, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't delivered on this day, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, but he come up to put more beer in the cooler.
Mr. HUBERT. That was his job?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He done that all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have anything to do with it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would he carry the beer from, from what place to where?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would come in the front door of the club, there was a hallway
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off to the side here and come on over here and made an L. My room was here and he'd get the beer over here and take it out.
Mr. HUBERT. He had to pass your room?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He had to pass by it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He would come in the back of the club where the beer was stored?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably he'd come in the front door and go up here and get the beer. My room was down here on this corner, and he would get the beer here.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the door open or closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. My door was closed.
Mr. HUBERT. Why was it closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. I closed it all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Weren't you supposed to be sort of on guard, as it were, in addition to doing the job around there, that is part of your job having someone on the premises?
Mr. CRAFARD. I just figured having me sleep there, I guess. He never said anything to me about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever awaken you on other days when he brought the beer?
Mr. CRAFARD. If Andy came in when I was still in bed he'd usually wake me up, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But he did not this morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said he called me but I hadn't woke up.
Mr. HUBERT. He called you by telephone or in person?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know whether he called me by telephone, he said he tried to call me by telephone or called me when he come to the club or what.
Mr. HUBERT. If he called you by telephone where would the telephone have been in reference to your room?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the room next to my room.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you hear it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever been awakened before by it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, several times.
Mr. HUBERT. There is no doubt then that if he had called you by telephone it would have awakened you?
Mr. CRAFARD. More likely I figured it would have, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course if he had tried to wake you by calling you, just through the door, that would have awakened you, I assume.
Mr. CRAFARD. I might have roused up, spoke to him and answered him and then got back down without even knowing it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember it. I say I might have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he tell you that he called you?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was shortly after he did wake me up.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he wake you up?
Mr. CRAFARD. He come in there and he had his radio up real loud when he come in there and he told me the President had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was at what time?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called me two or three times. It was just after the President had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times did he call you? You said two or three times?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called me two or three times at that time when he woke me up there he called me two or three times.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said so.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall it two or three times?
Mr. CRAFARD. I recall hearing him call me twice that I know of right then.
Mr. HUBERT. And then that aroused you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. Had you been drinking the night before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at, Larry, is why it was so difficult to wake you that morning.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I can understand that.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any explanation for it?
Mr. CRAFARD. None that I can think of except that I probably was a little tired, except a little tired from the night before when I went to bed.
Mr. HUBERT. You do recall that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I went to bed and went right to sleep. I didn't lie awake very long.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you normally lay awake sometimes?
Mr. CRAFARD. I normally lay awake anywhere from an hour and a half to 2 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. But this particular night you did not?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You weren't drinking?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you drink much?
Mr. CRAFARD. Very seldom. I drank, I think, three or four different times while I was there that I drank a beer or two, that was all.
Mr. HUBERT. So that your heavy sleep on the morning of the 22d couldn't be attributed to the fact that you had a hangover?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or that you were suffering from any overindulgence in alcohol?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't take any kind of sleeping pills or anything like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So this was just normal sleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And his call failed to wake you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you when he first came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. The first thing he said was President Kennedy had been shot. He said, "The President has been shot." I wouldn't hardly believe him.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Immediately we went in and turned the television on. He had his radio going and I turned the television on and listened to his radio and then we had to turn the television up real loud where we could hear it. We were more interested in what was said than the pictures they was showing or anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was something like----
Mr. HUBERT. I mean first of all when he woke you up.
Mr. CRAFARD. 20 or 25 to 12.
Mr. HUBERT. To 12?
Mr. CRAFARD. Or after 12, to 1, I mean. I think it was something like that. I'm not sure. I didn't have a watch on. I didn't have a watch at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. You began looking at the television. I suppose from the time that you woke up plus the time it took you to get dressed, or did you get dressed?
Mr. CRAFARD. As soon as he woke me up he went in and turned the television on while I was putting my pants on, putting my clothes on.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what was the first thing you saw on television?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a news commentator?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which one?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the station it was on?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't remember what station it was on, either.
It was one of the local--I believe it was 12 that Dallas-Fort Worth--I believe that was the station.
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Mr. HUBERT. It was a Dallas station or a Fort Worth station?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is one there they call the Dallas-Fort Worth, WWTV12, I think it is.
Mr. HUBERT. KLRD, is that what it is?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know what station it is. I am not sure whether it was WWTV.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there watching?
Mr. CRAFARD. We turned it up real loud where we could hear it and then listened to his radio, too, where we would hear both of them.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead, what happened next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall exactly what was said except the fact that the President had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you continue to watch it?
Mr. CRAFARD. We watched it right up until--most of the day, I think, we had the television on there, then, most of the day.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any of your work?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I started to clean up. When Jack come in he said not to. He said, "We're going to close the club for the weekend."
Mr. HUBERT. What time did he come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was about 2 or 2:30, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. About 2 hours after, do you think?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened, how he looked, what he said and all that, when he came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was like everybody else, shocked.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he manifest that shock?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. How did he manifest the shock? What did he do or say that gave you the impression that he was suffering from shock like everybody else?
Mr. CRAFARD. About the same thing as any of us said. We couldn't really believe it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he crying, for example?
Mr. CRAFARD. He seemed to be very nervous. As far as really being crying, I couldn't say for sure he had been crying. He wasn't crying at the time, anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Was his nervousness, or his shock greater than, say, that which you could observe in Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe it was. He was much nervouser than Andy or I, either one was.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did that come across to you, by what he said or did?
Mr. CRAFARD. It come across that it struck him pretty deep that Kennedy had been assassinated, had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. You see you have to get that impression from him in one of two ways. Either he said something or he did things, and that is what I want to find out, what he said or he did that creates an impression that now remains in your mind as being one of more shock than anybody else, and as you put it, extreme nervousness. You don't get that impression except what you saw or you heard.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now that is what I want to find out, because it is one thing to have your impression but it is another thing to have what caused your impression.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He couldn't believe it had happened.
Mr. HUBERT. He said so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What else did he do that was out of the ordinary?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was trying to think.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he cry? You said a moment ago he did not.
Mr. CRAFARD. He said it was an outrageous crime, that it would ruin the city of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why, in what way it would ruin it?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that the President had been shot there in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Would ruin it how?
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Mr. CRAFARD. As far as nightclubs, nightclub activity was concerned, for all nightclubs concerned, it would pretty well pull a lot of the conventions away, and such as that.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when Ruby came back and expressed his concern about the shooting of the President, he adverted to the fact that that crime would hurt Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would hurt the convention business and would hurt his business?
Mr. CRAFARD. He just said all nightclubs. He said the nightclub business in general, I believe, more than his personal business.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he specifically advert to how that would affect the Carousel and the Vegas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Andy and I both, I believe it was myself that made the statement that the guy, whoever had done that, had ought to hang, or something to that effect. and we was all pretty much in agreement on that subject. Our agreement on that was about the same.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, in this conference, I call it conference, I mean meeting that you and Andy and Jack had together, which commenced about 2 hours after the President's assassination, you discussed the fact that it was a terrible crime, that it would hurt the city and the nightclub business and that the man who did it ought to be punished?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Jack was a part of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; we was all pretty much in agreement on that. We agreed to the fact it would----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know at that time who had done it or who was suspected of having done it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that earlier on the news, or something, I believe they suspected Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he been mentioned by name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was prior to the time Ruby came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, I'm not definite on that, but I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, Ruby came in, you are quite sure, about 2 hours after you heard of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 2 hours, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you heard of it at a little after 12:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; just shortly after it happened.
Mr. HUBERT. So Jack told you that there is no use cleaning up?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He said, "We're going to close the club for the weekend."
Mr. HUBERT. What did he propose to do about the cleaning up job as to the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just leave it go until Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. Just let it stay as it was until Monday?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he so told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he made up his mind at that time to close the club for the entire weekend?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he just said for Friday and Saturday night at that time. He said something about cleaning up later on, or something, and then he come back later and he left.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's see, how long did he stay, before we get to this point?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was there maybe a half hour or 45 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. What else did he do there besides converse with you as you have already testified?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was about it right there, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any phone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he called his sister. I'm not sure.
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Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that, yourself, or do you think perhaps you picked that up from reading about it somewhere?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I believe that he called his sister on the phone right by the front door.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that is the public phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. We had three business phones on the same line in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. The same number, you mean?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, with the same number.
Mr. HUBERT. But there were different lines, you could make different calls from them?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. There was one phone with three extensions then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Two extensions?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two extensions.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a public phone there, too?
Mr. CRAFARD. The public phone was in the back in the hallway. I believe he called his sister from the front door phone there and talked to her and he told her he was coming over, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. You overheard that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either at that time or later in the afternoon when he come back.
Mr. HUBERT. On that first time that he was there, which was from 2:30 to about 3:15--would that be a fair estimate?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 3:15 or 3:30, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's do this. You mentioned a moment ago that he came in about 2:30 and stayed about a half hour to three-quarters of an hour. He came at 2:30 and left at about 3:30.
Then there is a possibility he stayed there an hour on his first visit.
Mr. CRAFARD. He might have been there anywhere between a half hour and three-quarters of an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. Anyway, roughly between 3 and 3:30 is when he left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And during that period he made one phone call, or you are not sure of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. I think he did, but I am not positive.
Mr. HUBERT. If it should turn out that he did not call his sister on that occasion, do you recall any other phone calls that he made during ths first visit?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not sure. It seems like there was a phone call to his brother or something that he called long distance either then or later in the day or something.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know he had called long distance?
Mr. CRAFARD. Because he had me get the address, get the number or something. He had me give him the phone number.
Mr. HUBERT. Of which brother?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the brother in Chicago--in Detroit, the Cobo Laundry.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Earl, aren't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not have Earl's number?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had it, he had it in his book at home, and I had it wrote down in the book of phone numbers there in the office.
Mr. HUBERT. And you then gave him the number, or dialed for him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I gave it to him, I believe, and he dialed it.
Mr. HUBERT. You were present when he dialed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy and I were both there in the main part of the club where he was at.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no one else in the club at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; just Andy and I.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why he didn't use his office phone?
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Mr. CRAFARD. No; I have no idea, except that during the day when there was nobody else there he would more frequently use the front phone than he would the office phone. We'd been out there talking. We could all three--he'd have the table space to work and everything, count his money out, figure out the papers, and everything.
Mr. HUBERT. You are unable to fix the time of that call to his brother, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is correct, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he come back after having left at, roughly, between 3 and 3:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. He come back about, I believe, about 4:30 or 5 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that he was gone about an hour to an hour and a half?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would say so. He asked me if I wanted to go to his sister's with him. He made quite a point of it, and I told him I'd prefer to stay at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by making quite a point of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He asked me two or three times about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it strike you as odd?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it just struck me as if he kind of wanted me to go. He thought it wouldn't be--didn't think it would be very good for me to stay there at the club by myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Why not?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he thought----
Mr. CRAFARD. He said he thought it would be better for me to go with him than to stay at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him why he had such thought?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't. I didn't think about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you think of the nature of that remark to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. It didn't have no effect on me whatsoever at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. You had stayed at the club alone before, hadn't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't you think it rather odd that he would suggest in some way that it wouldn't be proper for you to stay at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. At that time it didn't strike me at all. I didn't even think about it. I was still pretty shook up, myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been doing any work in the interval when he was gone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any phone calls when he came back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he called his sister at that time. I'm not positive, but I believe he called her at that time and told her he'd be right over.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he leave after having returned?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was only there for about 10 or 15, maybe 20 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he call his sister twice?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called her then, I'm almost positive that he called her that time and told her he'd be right over.
I told him that I'd prefer to stay at the club because, well, I knew his sister was highly emotional from what little I had talked to her on the telephone a couple of times, she called for Jack and she always seemed very nervous on the phone and everything.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand you now, it is quite clear that he did call his sister Eva?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When he came back the second time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I'm almost positive.
Mr. HUBERT. That is when he stayed about 10 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He left about 4:30 or 5, right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Having stayed there only 10 minutes, whatever time he did come?
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Mr. CRAFARD. He stayed only 10 or 15 minutes. He hadn't been there very long.
Mr. HUBERT. From the time that you first heard of the President's death until he left that second time to go to his sister's, had he called his sister once or twice?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was the second time he called her that day, I'm not positive.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the first call must have been through the first, during the first visit, mustn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so, because he only made the one phone call when he came back the last time.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, with relation to the call to his brother, is your memory fresh now as to whether that call was made during his first visit between 2:30 and 3 o'clock, 2:30 and 3:30, or on his second visit when he stayed 10 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was made on the first visit, I'm almost positive of that. I can only recall of one phone call he made and that was to his sister when he come back the second time.
Mr. HUBERT. He was there only 10 minutes, he called her and he asked you several times?
Mr. CRAFARD. He asked me two or three times to go with him and I told him I'd rather not because she was highly nervous and I didn't care to be around her. I hardly never----
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say to you about being worried about your staying at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He just thought it would be better for me to be with somebody than to be by myself, I guess, because I was shook up, kind of shook up about what had happened.
Mr. HUBERT. How were you showing that? I mean, what manifestations.
Mr. CRAFARD. I guess more or less a look in my face, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to indicate that he feared for your safety?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. But what you are telling us is that at the time you had no reaction whatsoever to that suggestion of his that it would be better for you not to stay at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had no reaction at all to it.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know whether he meant your safety or your own personal feelings or really what he meant?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't ask him what he meant?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So he just then openly allowed you to stay on?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Armstrong still there during that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Andy--I was alone at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. When did Andy leave?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy left just shortly after Jack had left the first time.
Mr. HUBERT. About what, 5 or 10 minutes after?
Mr. CRAFARD. About maybe 10 or 15 minutes later. When Jack was there the second time before he left, he give me a sign, he told me to make up a sign that said we'd be closed Friday and Saturday, put it downstairs about 6:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do it in pencil or pen?
Mr. CRAFARD. I made it with pencil and put it downstairs.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after he asked you to----
Mr. CRAFARD. That was after he left the second time.
Mr. HUBERT. No; you misunderstood my question. Did he ask you to make that sign before or after he asked you to go to Eva's with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was afterwards, after the first stay there at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions as to what to do?
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Mr. CRAFARD. Make up a sign that we'd be closed. He had a closed sign. He said, "Take it down there and put it downstairs about 7:30 or quarter to eight", and he said, "Wait until the other clubs open. Let them"--he said, I think it was, "Let them damn guys stay open", or something to that effect, quite similar to the wording there, I'm not sure what the wording was, that wording was.
Mr. HUBERT. He got over to you, though, that he was going to close, that he wanted you to prepare and put up a sign, but to do it in such a way that his competitors wouldn't know he was anticipating that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you so in so many words?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said, wait until they opened before I put it up. He said something like "Let those damn fools open if they want", or something to that effect, or "Stay open", or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any other instructions?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was about it. He asked me where I was going to eat and I told him and he said something about he'd call me in about an hour. He said to go ahead and eat then and he said "I'll call you in about an hour."
So he called me---I don't even remember what he said then. It was just I guess he asked me if there had been any phone calls-or something. It wasn't much. The conversation wasn't but about a dozen words at most.
Mr. HUBERT. Had there been any phone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not while I was at the club. I waited until about 30 minutes after he left and then I went to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you eat?
Mr. CRAFARD. To the drugstore, Walgreen Drugstore.
Mr. HUBERT. You ate alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You came back to the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it when you got back?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been about 6:20 or 6:30, something like that, I guess--a little later.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you next hear from Ruby or see him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I never saw him again until the next morning. He called me from Eva's, talked with me for a few minutes, about an hour after he left. I just got back from eating.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he was at Eva's?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said he was at Eva's, and then I could hear her voice. They was watching on television.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the subject of that conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I can recall, he just asked me if there had been any calls, as far as I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. And you simply told him no?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you about the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I told him I had it ready and he made sure, he told me again what time not to put it up until after about 7:30 or a quarter to eight.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that conversation last?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was just a very few minutes. It couldn't have been more than two dozen words spoken at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any indication as to what his plans were?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about going to church?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall. I think he said something about I could reach him at Eva's if I needed him for anything, I think he said.
Mr. HUBERT. And this you think was between 6:15 and 6:30, or long in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I prefer to say between 6:30 and 7.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with the rest of the day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the club and watched it on television.
Mr. HUBERT. You were alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Nobody else came at all?
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Mr. CRAFARD. No. The door was locked downstairs, nobody could get up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you put up the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. I waited until about a quarter to eight before I put up the sign.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the other clubs open?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were closed too. I am not sure. I am not positive about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Any phone calls come at all the rest of the evening?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You were there alone that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You just watched television until you went to bed?
Mr. CRAFARD. I watched television for quite a while. I watched television most of the afternoon. It seemed like the more I watched it, the worse it made me feel, in a way, so I just quit watching it. I had a couple of books there and I read most of the afternoon and the evening.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go to bed?
Mr. CRAFARD. I must have went to bed probably about 9 or 9:30, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. And there were no phone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall. I believe there was--about midnight I believe it was, there was a call. I don't even know why this girl called. I don't even know why she called. I talked to her for a few minutes and then I took the phone out of the office. It had a big long cord on it and I carried it in by my bed. I stretched out on the bed and we talked for quite a long time.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't even remember her name. I had never met her before or ever heard from her again.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did she say she was?
Mr. CRAFARD. She give me her name. I don't remember what her name was.
Mr. HUBERT. What did she say her business was, why did she call?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think she said something about wanting a job with the club or something.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not a girl that worked at the club in any way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she was not connected with the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think she did identify herself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I know she identified herself.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't remember who she was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen her before?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I had never met the girl.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't recognize the name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize the voice?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. As far as you could say then this was a complete stranger to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you speak to her?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, we must have talked altogether for about an hour, an hour and a half, and then hung up, and about 15 or 20 minutes she called back and talked for a couple of hours.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you talked to this girl for a total of about 3 hours that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it all about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just more or less talking, getting acquainted. More than anything over the phone, the best I could.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she indicate where she was?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was baby sitting for a friend of hers. She give me to understand she was to catch a bus out of town the next morning, about 5:30.
Mr. HUBERT. In the course of the conversation did you try to find out why she had called the Carousel?
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Mr. CRAFARD. She called, she said, to start with, when we first started talking, she had called to find out about a job in the club. I don't know why she done it that way--that is what she said, as far as I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she aware that the President was dead?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe we discussed that a little bit too. I don't recall what was said.
Mr. HUBERT. The first time you spoke to her, you said it was about midnight--right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had been asleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had just started dozing off when the phone rang.
Mr. HUBERT. And you spoke to her then about an hour?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe I'm not sure I think Little Lynn called.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did she call?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the one time that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was about 9:30 or 10 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. What did she say?
Mr. CRAFARD. After I laid down.
Mr. HUBERT. What did she want?
Mr. CRAFARD. She wanted to talk to Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she tell you what about?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she just said it was urgent. I believe I told her Jack was at Eva's and give her Eva's number.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was she?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was at her home in Fort Worth, as I understood.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a long-distance call?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Any other workers, waitresses or girls come in that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, none. Jack had had Andy call all of them to tell them not to come in.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when you ended the conversation with this girl that began about midnight, was there an arrangement for one or the other of you to call up again in a few minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I told her I'd like to talk to her again. I told her I'd like to meet her. I told her I'd like to get acquainted with her. I tried to get her to talk a little longer. She said she had to hang up. And then she called me back 15 or 20 minutes later.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you continued to talk for a couple of hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did that end up?
Mr. CRAFARD. Some one of the younger kids there woke up or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you made any arrangement to meet her, to see her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; no definite arrangements. I tried to get her to tell me what bus station she was leaving out of. She wouldn't even tell me what bus station she was leaving out of. I told her I'd meet her before she caught the bus, but she wouldn't tell me where she was leaving.
Mr. HUBERT. This conversation in fact, Larry, was kind of a love making on the phone deal, wasn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. More or less what you might say an attempt.
Mr. HUBERT. And part of that attempt of course would be trying to find out who she was and where you could meet her, wouldn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Who she was and where I could meet her at her likes and her dislikes, such as that.
Mr. HUBERT. She wouldn't tell you any of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, she wouldn't tell me where I could meet her at or anything, but other than we really talked as if we known each other for months, actually.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't write down her name, Larry?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I wrote her name down, but I never could get her phone number.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you write it down?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I wrote it down in that notebook I had. I'm not sure. I don't have her name now. I never had her name after I left Texas, I know that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize that name in the notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not even sure of that.
Mr. HUBERT. We will have an opportunity.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she sound like a young girl? How old a person was she?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she said she was 19, 18 or 19 years old.
Mr. HUBERT. She told you, didn't she, that she had to be at the bus station at 5 o'clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was 5, 5:30 or 6 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. There is only one bus station there, isn't there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two bus stations, Trailways and Greyhound.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find out which one?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. She wouldn't tell you that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she tell you what time the bus was going to leave?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think she said something about she had to leave where she was at 5:30 or 6 o'clock to catch the bus.
Mr. HUBERT. To catch the bus?
Mr. CRAFARD. To catch the bus.
Mr. HUBERT. To go where?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think she said she was going to Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you try to find out what buses from either station were leaving around that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't call the bus depots or anything. I wasn't that interested in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were interested enough in her to talk with her for 3 hours. I wondered if you weren't interested enough to find out if you couldn't meet her by going to one of the bus stations.
Mr. CRAFARD. She talked--she was leaving town and didn't figure on being back for quite a little while.
Mr. HUBERT. When did she tell you that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Shortly after we started--I believe just shortly before we finished the conversation I started to find out where to meet her at.
Mr. HUBERT. Which was it? What killed your interest? Is that what you are trying to tell us?
Mr. CRAFARD. I figured she was leaving town, there wasn't no sense in going to too much trouble to try and meet her if she was leaving town and wasn't figuring on being back.
First, she talked like she was going to be gone for the weekend, and then just shortly before we finished the conversation, she give me to understand that she would be gone on a prolonged, for a prolonged period of time.
Mr. HUBERT. So this girl then, who was going for a long period of time, you suggest was willing to talk with you for 3 hours and the conversation, the general tenor of which was sort of love making on the phone, as it were?
Mr. CRAFARD. As you would put it; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find out or try to find out her phone number?
Mr. CRAFARD. I asked for her--I tried to get her phone number where she was at. I tried to get her home phone number. I tried to get her address. She wouldn't.
Mr. HUBERT. She wouldn't give you any of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any idea what subject you could possibly have talked about for that length of time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly we discussed our different hobbies, our likes and dislikes. Like I say, the conversation was more as if we had known each other for 2 or 3 weeks or better.
Mr. HUBERT. You must have made more than one effort to try to get her phone number and her address.
Mr. CRAFARD. Several times I tried.
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Mr. HUBERT. What reason did she ascribe for not giving it to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. She said she was at a neighbor's place. She was babysitting for some friends of hers.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but you had asked her for her home address as well?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Her home phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. She just wouldn't give me any reason for not giving me her home phone number that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's see, that means that she was a person who was going out of town and did not want to talk to you any more, and didn't want to give you her number.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Or where you could reach her?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. But she spoke to you for 3 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, when she called did she ask for anyone in particular?
Mr. CRAFARD. She asked if it was the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did she say?
Mr. CRAFARD. And I said yes, and I asked her if there was something I could do for her. I believe she said she had called in answer to an ad in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there an ad in the paper?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ruby continuously run an ad for girls. After I got to talking to her--it's kind of funny as all get-out-- getting ready to leave town the next morning and then calling in in response to this ad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you got the impression after talking with her for a while that she really hadn't called in response to that ad.
Mr. CRAFARD. I got the impression she was kind of a kook, in a way. I have known of girls to do this, call up strange people and talk to them as long as the person will talk to them.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you do that too?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I have never done that, not that way.
Mr. HUBERT. So it was not your normal way of doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was the middle of the night, Larry?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Why do you think you did that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just talked to her, somebody to talk to. I wasn't sleepy. Somebody to talk to more than anything.
Mr. HUBERT. You see the point--that that would be a story that would be much easier to accept if the time element was not present.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I understand.
Mr. HUBERT. You must admit it is rather extraordinary for two strangers to speak as long as you did on two separate occasions when apparently there was no particular purpose about it, and no particular future to it.
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't explain it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she indicate that she was somebody with the Carousel operation, what it was like?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she say what she wanted to do there, what kind of a job she wanted?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a job for waitresses was what he run all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she mention that is what she was applying for?
Mr. CRAFARD. She mentioned the fact that she was calling in connection with the ad.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you must have asked her what she looked like.
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes; I asked her for a general description of herself, measurements and weight.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what she said?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can recall, she give me her general height and weight, color of her eyes, her hair.
Mr. HUBERT. What was all that?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don't remember whether she was a blonde or a brunette?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she said she had brown hair.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you do recall about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think that is what she said. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. What about her height? What mental impression did you form as to what sort of a person she must look like?
Mr. CRAFARD. From the description she give me, I figured she must be a fairly nice looking girl.
Mr. HUBERT. I judged that you had that impression. Did she have a good figure?
Mr. CRAFARD. If I recall right, she more than likely must have had. That is about 90 percent of a girls looks anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I figure that is about 90 percent of a girls looks, physical looks, is her figure.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you are attentive to that sort of thing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; like any other man.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not critical. It brings me back to the point that you said you didn't remember what she looked like. I suggest perhaps that you do. It is a little bit more than you are telling us.
Mr. CRAFARD. I figured that she must have been a pretty nice--had a pretty decent figure from her description and everything, or I wouldn't have thought she was a fairly good looking girl if she hadn't give a pretty good description of her figure. But as far as the measurements, I can't remember the exact measurements or anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. But she was a brunette and she had a good figure. Did she say anything about her weight?
Mr. CRAFARD. She must have been fairly light. It seemed attractive to me because I like a smaller female. It must have been about 100 or 105, something like that. But I don't remember the exact weight or anything.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that the weight was attractive to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been light.
Mr. HUBERT. And therefore it was light. Are there any other preferences of yours that would help us to determine that she told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can think of, other than a good figure and a fairly decent height.
Mr. HUBERT. How did she describe her face?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't really remember how she described her face, it has been so blasted long ago.
Mr. HUBERT. When the first part of this conversation ended, did she tell you she was going to call you back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to her about calling me back if she got the chance, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she say why she had to end the conversation, the first conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think she said something about the kids she was babysitting with, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that she had to attend to them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that she had to end the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. To tell you the truth what I thought, I kind of had the idea all the way through it sounded to me like it was a bunch of older guys and gals in the background giggling all the time. It seems to me like it was a dare they had put her up to just to see how long a person would talk to her, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Then there were people?
Mr. CRAFARD. It sounded like.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than babies?
Mr. CRAFARD. She kept saying she was babysitting with these kids and that was all that was there was these young kids.
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Mr. HUBERT. But you heard adults in the background?
Mr. CRAFARD. It sounded to me like it was at least teenagers, kids at least in their midteens, if not older, and I kind of had the idea that they had probably put her up to a dare.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were willing to go along with that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Sure; why not? I would probably never see her.
Mr. HUBERT. And you haven't?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's put it this way: You may have met some girls since then, but in any case those that you have met have not identified themselves or become identified with that girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That would take us until about 3 o'clock in the morning wouldn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right about that; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you asleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I dozed off about then, and by then this call came from Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That must have been between 3:30 and 3:45, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the call with the girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. It wasn't but about--it couldn't have been more than a half hour.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack indicate that he had been trying to get you but the line had been busy?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he want?
Mr. CRAFARD. He wanted me to get dressed to meet him downstairs with the camera, Polaroid Land camera, with extra films and extra bulbs.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the camera you told us was previously used for taking the pictures of customers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Taking the pictures of what?
Mr. HUBERT. Of customers.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you whether you knew how to operate that camera?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think there had been some discussion about the camera on a couple--on a previous occasion about it.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, you had operated it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had operated it at the club a couple of times.
Mr. HUBERT. He knew you had?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I think there was something said a couple of nights before, something about it.
Mr. HUBERT. You had taken pictures of the customers, as you frequently did, to give them as they danced with the girls? And he knew that you had done that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, see; yea, he knew that I had done it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you if you knew how to operate one?
Mr. CRAFARD. He asked me if I knew how to change the film, that is what it was. I told him yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So what happened then?
Mr. CRAFARD. So I went ahead and got dressed. I had just got dressed and got the film and bulbs and was starting to get the camera when this guy from the garage called up and told me Jack was downstairs and wanted me to hurry. So I went out downstairs and got in the car.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the guy from the garage?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember what his name was.
Mr. HUBERT. A white man?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a white boy.
Mr. HUBERT. White woman?
Mr. CRAFARD. White man.
Mr. HUBERT. White man. Did he telephone you or come up?
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Mr. CRAFARD. He telephoned up. He couldn't have come up. The door was locked.
Mr. HUBERT. So Jack was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Outside in the car when I went down, Jack and George Senator.
Mr. HUBERT. How long was that after you had spoken to Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. It couldn't have been more than a half hour at the most, because I hadn't much more than got dressed when he called from upstairs.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understood it, about a half hour after you finished talking to the girl you were just about dozing when Jack called?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And said he would be right down?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You got up and dressed?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You fetched the camera?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And the bulbs and the film?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you load the camera then?
Mr. CRAFARD. The camera was loaded.
Mr. HUBERT. It was already loaded?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he know that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He knew it was loaded but nobody had any idea exactly how many--we didn't know for sure how many pictures were left in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you take some extra film?
Mr.CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was all there?
Mr. CRAFARD. A roll of extra film.
Mr. HUBERT. All of that wouldn't take a half hour, would it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I washed up, I imagine, before I got dressed. I usually did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you where you were going?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not until after we went out there. We took off and I said, "Where are we going?" He didn't say anything. He went on out there.
Mr. HUBERT. When he called by telephone the first time did he tell you where he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know for sure. I don't remember whether he did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I took it for granted he was at the home as far as I figured.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that you now recall that would help you remember as to whether he was calling from home or not?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. So in fact you really don't know where he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you think it was as much as a half hour after he called that you got the call from the garageman to come down?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he and Senator were in the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Senator was in front?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; Jack and Senator were both in front.
Mr. HUBERT. You got in the back?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you drove off?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. It is at that time I think you said you asked him what this was all about?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I said something about where are we going.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said "I want you to take some pictures."
Mr.HUBERT. And did you ask him where?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was driving then.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him of what?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall if I asked him about what or not. I think him and Senator were talking.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what they were talking about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Something about an ad, I think an ad, a sign or something like that. When we got out there, it was "Impeach Earl Warren" sign at the corner of the North Central Expressway.
Mr. HUBERT. And what?
Mr. CRAFARD. North Central and Hall, I believe it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe this intersection that you think that you took this sign----
Mr. CRAFARD. It was just like most of the expressway intersections are. Around--come around under this bridge under an overcrossing and a road into the side here, and another one comes square into it here over the other side of the bridge. It was a building set in here.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this: How do you know it was the North Expressway and Hall?
Mr. CRAFARD. The sign on the corner.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw the sign that said that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. We parked right beside the sign.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have no questions about your memory on that? It was next to a sign saying North Expressway?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was on the North Central Expressway. I believe it was the North Central and Hall.
Mr. HUBERT. You parked by the sign which designated both streets?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe yes; I believe that was the name of the streets. I am not sure of the side street, but I believe it was Hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You drove out of town from the Carousel Club. Did you drive north on the North Central Expressway?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know which way. I don't even know exactly which way the North Central Expressway runs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: This overpass that was near the intersection, did you go under the overpass before you got to the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the sign, was that located facing traffic that comes into town or traffic that goes out of town?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was facing traffic coming into town; I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was there a place to park near that sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. On a side street that I believe is Hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you pull off what you believe to be Hall Street, could you pull off the road at that point and drive right up next to the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a curb up--you would have to go over the curb to do so, I believe. I think we parked along the curb here and got out and walked across this open, small open space to the building the sign was on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How large was the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was I think about 3-foot long and about the same height, 3 or 4 foot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what kind of a standard or support was it on?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was on a building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was actually plastered on a building?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how high up on the building was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'd say about 5 or 6 foot.
Mr. HUBERT. How many pictures did you take?
Mr. CRAFARD. I took three photographs.
Mr. HUBERT. Were those instantaneous print pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; 10-second Polaroid.
Mr. HUBERT. After you had finished taking them, what happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. We got back in the car and went back into town to one of those cafes and had coffee.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the cafe?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the name of the cafe. I could take a person right to it, but I can't tell you the name.
Mr. HUBERT. How far away was it from the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 2 1/2 blocks.
Mr. HUBERT. Which way?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would be south.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it, on Commerce Street?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was half a block off Commerce, two blocks down Commerce and half a block off.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Senator with you then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, the three of us were together. We went in and had coffee, and I believe Jack showed the pictures to the man there in the cafe.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack say about the pictures at any time, commencing from the time you took them till----
Mr. CRAFARD. There was some reference made between the address on the pictures and the address on an ad he had saw in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Who made that reference?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ruby made the reference.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the context of the reference, what the idea was contained in his reference?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that there was quite a similarity--he said something about the numbers were the same when turned around a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that the numbers----
Mr. CRAFARD. In the address.
Mr. HUBERT. The numbers in the address of the sign of which you had taken a picture were similar to those in an advertisement of some sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I could understand, a hate advertisement that he had saw in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have that hate advertisement with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he express his thoughts as to what he proposed to do with those pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said something about going down to the post office and checking this box number to see who had a box number, a certain box, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, did he mention what he wanted the pictures for?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the cafe?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was there long enough to drink coffee, and that is about it.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be about how many minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, maybe 20 or 25 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go next?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then they took me over to the Carousel Club and dropped me off at the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. This was about 5, maybe 5:20. I'd say between 5 and 5:30.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went back upstairs and put the camera up.
Mr. HUBERT. And then what?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I picked up a book and read another book or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to sleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. Read a book or something.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to sleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wasn't sleepy at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. I said did you go to sleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the next thing that happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 8:30, I think it was, I called Jack. When I had been with them I said something about dogfood, and Jack had said he'd bring some back, so I called him about 8:30 and said--I guess I woke him up or something. He was fairly shook up over the phone and chewed me out a little bit about waking him up at that time in the morning.
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Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever wakened him up at that time before?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I had never called him before in the morning, like that.
Mr. HUBERT. What made you do so on this occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. He wanted me to be sure and feed the dogs, and I didn't have any dogfood to feed them. He was usually up by that time in the morning, the way he talked. He said he always got up at 7 o'clock every morning, and I called him, figured when he did come down he could bring dogfood down.
Mr. HUBERT. You expressed two thoughts a little while ago. I want to, there again, get the factual basis for those thoughts or impressions. One, that he was shook up, and the other that he chewed you out. Those are both impressions that are based upon facts. What were the facts?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the way he answerd the phone, he was kind of teed off, you know, sort of teed off. He answered the phone in a grumpy way. He had never spoke to me on the phone that way before.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?
Mr. CRAFARD. He just give me the daylights for calling him.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he give you the daylights?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember what he said exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he curse?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that you were stupid? Did he use some words that you didn't like, that gave you the impression he was mad at you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember what he said, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, whatever words they were, they were not polite?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Shall I put it that way?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was his general way of speaking to me, more like he talked to me more like he always did with Andy, when he was mad with Andy, when he was bawling Andy out for something.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it the tone of voice more than the actual words?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was both. One thing his voice was very loud, and he knew how that grated on me.
Mr. HUBERT. He had talked to you like that before?
Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion, and I had stopped him. I told him I didn't like it. I told him if he wanted to talk to me, to talk to me, not to yell at me.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago had that been before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just shortly after I went to work for him.
Mr. HUBERT. And he had never done it since?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But he did do it on this occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You also said that he seemed shook up, I think, or what were the words you used there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That are used?
Mr. HUBERT. No; that he used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think he said "shook up."
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I did.
Mr. HUBERT. And that he had chewed you out. I had asked you for a separate basis of facts for both of those, both of those mental impressions you got. Is your explanation intended to cover both of them?
Mr. CRAFARD. About the only thing I could figure, it would be the same for the other.
Mr. HUBERT. As I gather it then----
Mr. CRAFARD. He was shook up, mad.
Mr. HUBERT. He was mad at you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I believe I was using the term "shook up" to mean.
Mr. HUBERT. He was mad at you and he chewed you out.
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention anything about the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall.
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Mr. HUBERT. Was it simply that here was a man who had been asleep and who had been wakened and he was mad because somebody had wakened him up?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been. That is what I took it as.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what you took it as?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He used the tone of voice with you that he had used once before which you didn't like, and you told him about?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said something else. I don't remember what it was he said.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it like?
Mr. CRAFARD. How's that?
Mr. HUBERT. What was it like in addition to this? Was it something particularly more aggravating to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would, think it was pertaining to the President or somethingthere. I don't remember what it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, pass it. Perhaps we will come back to it in a little while. How long did that conversation last, about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe 5 minutes at time most.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about the dogs?
Mr. CRAFARD. He said he would bring some dog food down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you when?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he said, "When you come."
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you when to come?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. This you say was about 8:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 8:30.
Mr. HUBERT. It lasted 5 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had Andy come yet?
Mr. CRAFARD. How's that?
Mr. HUBERT. Had Andy come yet?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Andy wasn't coming in. The club was closed.
Mr. HUBERT. The club still hadn't been cleaned up?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I went over and had breakfast.
Mr. HUBERT. Right away?
Mr. CRAFARD. Shortly after that. Within 10 or 15 minutes, it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still dressed, I take it, because you had never undressed?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. You hadn't been to sleep at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You hadn't been to sleep at all that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not very much, dozed off a couple of times or so, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean what with reading the book after you went to bed and the telephone conversation, or both of them, with the girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And then the visit outside with Jack and then going back and reading some more, and then the call at 8:30, as I understand you, correct me if I am wrong, you didn't really sleep at all that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to breakfast?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went over to the Walgreen drugstore.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was gone about a half hour, approximately--probably 9:15 or 9:30.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I sat around the club there for quite a while. Then I decided to leave, so I took off.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you reach your decision to leave?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know. It must have been about 11 or 11:15, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any money?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I had $5, and that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you owed any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Like I say, there was no--he had come to an agreement to give me some money, but I didn't know how much he had figured on giving me, or anything. I think I took $5 out of the till, if I remember correct, and left a draw slip in the till.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any money other than the $5?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I had $2 in my pocket.
Mr. HUBERT. So you had $7, all together?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you going?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you determined at that time that you were going to Michigan?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had wrote to my sister quite a while before that, and I had got no answer, and I had been worrying, wondering what the devil was wrong there because she never failed to answer me right away.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the reason that you decided to go, to find out?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was the only reason that I know of I was going.
Mr. HUBERT. What I want to get at is what was your motivation for leaving.
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I had been wanting to go up to Michigan to see my sister and find out what was wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was the reason you went?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, this little rhubarb you had with Sack wasn't the real cause of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That had nothing to do with your decision?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave any note to say what you were doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I left the key down with the boy at the garage, and told him to give it to Jack when Jack come in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave any verbal message that you were leaving?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I told him to tell Jack I said goodby.
Mr. HUBERT. Don't you think you owed him more than that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I never stopped to give it a thought.
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn't you call him and tell him that you wanted to go and see your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know. I haven't got any idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn't you wait until he came in and tell him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I made up my mind to go, and that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you propose to travel that distance with $7?
Mr. CRAFARD. Hitchhike.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you done that before in your life?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. You told absolutely nobody but the garageman that you were leaving; is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right. He is the only one I spoke to. I gave him the key and told him to tell Jack I said goodby.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not tell him where you were going?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you in fact go? What route did you take?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went out and took, I think it is 77, I believe it is--right outside of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I walked out about 15 or 18 blocks, I think it is, and a guy I had met Out at the fair picked me up. He saw me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you arrange for him to pick you up?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he was going by, he saw me, and he recognized me.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?
Mr. CRAFARD. How's that?
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember what his name is. He worked out there for a while. I never did know his name. I don't think he knew my name. He recognized me as having worked out there.
Mr. HUBERT. You were on the highway hitchhiking at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a bag?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How large was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a regular satchel and I had another bag.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a car was he driving?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he had a 1954 or 1955 Chevy, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. He was alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had his son with him.
Mr. HUBERT. How old is his son?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nine or ten years old, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. How far did you go with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took me about 20 or 25 or 30 miles out. It wasn't in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him where you were heading?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I told him I was going up to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss the route to go to Michigan?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I knew the route I wanted.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you looked it up?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had been across that route previously and knew.
Mr. HUBERT. Hitchhiking?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before?
Mr. CRAFARD. My wife and I left Dallas in 1963. We went up 77 to 66.
Mr. HUBERT. But you weren't hitchhiking then, were you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; we hitchhiked. She wouldn't take the bus. I had money for her to take the bus with her and the kids, and she refused to do so.
Mr. HUBERT. You told us earlier you had gone by bus.
Mr. CRAFARD. We went part way by bus.
Mr. HUBERT. Which part did you go by bus?
Mr. CRAFARD. We went I think from Sacramento, took the bus out.
Mr. HUBERT. You hitchhiked to Sacramento?
Mr. CRAFARD. We hitchhiked to Bakersfield, and picked up a motorcycle I had there and went on the motorcycle. I worked in California there for about 3 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you go by bus?
Mr. CRAFARD. From Sacramento we took the bus on up to Washington.
Mr. HUBERT. But you hitchhiked the previous time?
Mr. CRAFARD. To Bakersfield.
Mr. HUBERT. With your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was at her request? She wanted to hitchhike?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Rather than go by bus?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she give any reason for that?
Mr. CRAFARD. She didn't want to leave me.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't want to what?
Mr. CRAFARD. She didn't want to leave, let me go by myself or something.
Mr. HUBERT. But you said you offered to take her by bus.
Mr. CRAFARD. I offered to send her by bus and I'd hitchhike. That is what I figured on doing. I had the money to send her and the two boys, but I didn't have money enough to take the bus myself.
Mr. HUBERT. So the three of you hitchhiked--the four of you hitchhiked?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. There were two young babies and you and your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any difficulty with that?
Mr. CRAFARD. None whatsoever.
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Mr. HUBERT. Now you have hitchhiked a lot, Larry---isn't it true that it is much harder for a group of people to hitchhike than an individual?
Mr. CRAFARD. It depends on the group. You take a group like that and it is much easier for a family group like that to get a hitchhike than it is for a single person.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, people seem to stop a lot faster for a family group like that than they would for a single person.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had never hitchhiked north, had you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I figured to myself that we would take a route across from Dallas to Amarillo, that that was a pretty hard route to hichhike under any circumstances, and figured that would be a lot easier, to go up 77 to hit 66, than it would be to go through to Amarillo.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you consult a map at all in planning this trip?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. We picked it up at the gas station.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean after you started out?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I picked up a map right there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex., about a block from where my wife and I had been living.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about consulting a map with reference to going to see your sister when you left Ruby's place.
Mr. CRAFARD. I knew that 77 would carry me right into 66, and 66 would carry me almost in to Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have to consult a map then?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that what you are telling us?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. This boy picked you up then and carried you about 30 miles, you say?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. To what place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Out the other side of Carrollton a little ways.
Mr. HUBERT. What State?
Mr. CRAFARD. Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he live there?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a place there on the lake he was working on, he was going out there.
Mr. HUBERT. What lake was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the name of the lake.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was at Carrollton?
Mr. CRAFARD. Out the other side of Carrollton.
Mr. HUBERT. How far beyond Carrollton?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know. He went out and turned off on a country road.
Mr. HUBERT. But he left you on the highway?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a country road that went east or west of the highway you were on?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went to the west, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you how far he had to go up the road?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He was going to work, is that it?
Mr. CRAFARD. How's that?
Mr. HUBERT. He was going to work?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was going to go up and do some work on his cabin.
Mr. HUBERT. On his cabin on the lake?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did this man know Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Could he have met Ruby as you did out at the fair?
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Mr. CRAFARD. He could have, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know that he did?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him about what you had been doing in the interim since you had last seen him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I told him that I had been working in Dallas at the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention that you had been working for Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I probably told him that Ruby ran the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he show any signs of recognizing he had seen Ruby out at the State Fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or that he knew him in any other way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So far as you know then, the man didn't know Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. He gave no manifestations of knowing him at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then. What happened next?
Mr. CRAFARD. I hitchhiked on up to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you wait for your next hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, barely about 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. The same spot or were you walking along?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed right there, walked about a hundred yards, maybe, up to an entryway where the cars came into the freeway.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you got another ride?
Mr. CRAFARD. Got another ride, right there.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that with?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us something about him, what kind of a car it was, was it a man, a woman?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, man; I believe it was a ride with a man.
Mr. HUBERT. How far did you go with this second driver?
Mr. CRAFARD. Wait a minute, it was a man and his wife that picked me up, carried me on up across the line, up to where he hit 66.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a car was it, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they had an old Chevy, or an old Ford.
Mr. HUBERT. What license car?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a Texas car.
Mr. HUBERT. And they carried you across the Texas line?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. They was going up to visit some relatives of his up there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where? Is there a town at the Texas line that he dropped you off?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was on up about 50 or 60 miles across the other side of the line.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I thought from what you said that he had dropped you off at the line. In fact he had brought you about 60 miles beyond the line.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And into what State?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was Oklahoma.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you ride with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was together for about 5 or 6 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. What time of day was it when he dropped you off?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was night when I got off there.
Mr. HUBERT. What time had he picked you up?
Mr. CRAFARD. He picked me up about between 12:30 and a quarter to 1.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the town it was in?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was one of the big towns there, if I can think of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tulsa, Oklahoma City?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oklahoma City, I think it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You rode in the back?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I rode in the front seat with them. They were driving the car.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. CRAFARD. I rode in the front seat with them.
Mr. HUBERT. The three of you in the front?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, they had stuff in the back seat.
Mr. HUBERT. And I understood you to say that they didn't tell you their names at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. They give me their name, but I don't remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. But that they were going to visit some relatives in Oklahoma City?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. They was visiting his dad.
Mr. HUBERT. His father. And that would have been around 6:30 or 7 at night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right around there; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you have lunch?
Mr. CRAFARD. We stopped along the road at a cafe and had lunch.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stop on the road with the couple or with that friend?
Mr. CRAFARD. With the couple.
Mr. HUBERT. You paid for your own lunch?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. That I think was your first expenditure on the trip?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did that cost you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe $1, a dollar and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you pay for their lunch?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; they paid for their own.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, what did you do then?
Mr. CRAFARD. They let me out. I hitchhiked on up to Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they leave you in downtown?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; they took me out to the edge of town to hitch a ride.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it in the direction they were going?
Mr. CRAFARD. They dropped by there, by his dad's place, and we sat there and we each had a cup of coffee and he took me out to the edge of town.
Mr. HUBERT. So you met his dad too?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know what street that was on?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know the name of the people?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else there besides the father?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was the father and one son that was at home.
Mr. HUBERT. An adult son?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was in school I understand.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a boy was he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He must have been about 16 or 17.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was there maybe a half an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. And had coffee?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. No supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then they took you from there to a spot on the highway on the other side of Oklahoma City--that is, on the north side did they?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And dropped you off for your next hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. How long a drive was it to get you there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, maybe about 4 or 5 miles.
Mr. HUBERT. Miles you say?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The man and his wife or just the man?
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Mr. CRAFARD. Him and his wife, and I think his brother was with him, him and his wife and his brother.
Mr. HUBERT. They dropped you off?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Any suggestions made that you might rest overnight there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Right away?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I stood there maybe a half hour, 45 minutes, I was standing under a street light.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I ate about 10 or 11 o'clock that night.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about your third hitch, how long it was, and so forth.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it carried me through most of the night, through the rest of the night I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a man, woman?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a man.
Mr. HUBERT. Alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can figure.
Mr. HUBERT. How old?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe in his late thirties.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of an automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he had a Buick.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the color?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the license, what State license?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oklahoma.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you sit in the back or in the front?
Mr. CRAFARD. I sat in the front.
Mr. HUBERT. And he carried you how far?
Mr. CRAFARD. We traveled most of the night. He was traveling back east.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did he drop you off and where?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he dropped me off just the other side of Missouri, in Missouri, just outside of St. Louis on 66.
Mr. HUBERT. Which side of St. Louis?
Mr. CRAFARD. The south side.
Mr. HUBERT. Which way was he going?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be the west side of 66, of St. Louis, on 66. going into St. Louis.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was he going after that?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, he was going back home.
Mr. HUBERT. East?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was going up on 66. So far as I know he was stopping in St. Louis.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said he was going east.
Mr. CRAFARD. From where he picked me up it was east, from where he picked me up.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean, was St. Louis his final destination?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was it as far as he was concerned?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you had supper with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. We stopped at about 10 or 10:30 and had a bite to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think we stopped at a truck stop.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know what place?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had been tiding with him did you stop?
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Mr. CRAFARD. He picked me up, it must have been about 8 o'clock, or 8:30. We didn't stop until about 10 or 10:30 for lunch, for a bite to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Two and a half hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you could have run a hundred miles or so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Easily.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't a city which you stopped at?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, it was just a little truck stop on the highway.
Mr. HUBERT. On 66?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you fall asleep there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I did, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At what time, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. You are not sure then that you did fall asleep?
Mr. CRAFARD. I fell asleep, but I have no idea when it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how long you slept?
Mr. CRAFARD. I slept until about a half hour out of St. Louis, when I woke up.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to St. Louis?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it daylight?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. How much had you spent for supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe a dollar; a dollar and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. You were down to about $4 then?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then I went on up. I got a ride there.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you have to wait until you got that next hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe a haft hour.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that one; what time it was, what kind of a car it was, the people in it.
Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine it was a man alone.
Mr. HUBERT. Don't imagine if you can help it. If you can't remember, but try to recollect.
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. How far did you go on that hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he carried me clear up into Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. How far a run would that be?
Mr. CRAFARD. How's that?
Mr. HUBERT. How much of a run would that be?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be about a 7- or 8-hour ride, driving time, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. It was daylight then?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So you were on that hitch about 7 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether it was a man or a woman?
Mr. CRAFARD, It was a man.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; most of your rides are with men alone.
Mr. HUBERT. A little while ago you told us that you didn't know whether it was a man or a woman or anything; you didn't remember. Now you tell us it was a man.
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you really do remember that it was a man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, I daresay you can describe him, can't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can't describe him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a young'man or an old man?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was in his late twenties.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to me like it was a red and white Chevy.
475 731-229 O---64---voll.XIII----31
Mr. HUBERT. You say you were with that person and in that automobile about 7 or 8 hours clean into Chicago. So you had a lot of opportunity to observe such things as who you were riding with.
Mr. CRAFARD. It has been quite a while back, too.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your memory that you now say he was a man in his late twenties; about 29?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say in his late twenties.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you don't remember the type of car?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a Chevy.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember the State license plate?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any stopping with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine we probably stopped a couple of times and gassed up; stopped and had a bite to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the cost of that meal?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't. It couldn't have been more than about a dollar or a dollar and a half, at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't pay for his meal or buy the gas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it customary for hitchhikers to help out that way?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not very often. A man usually figures if he picks up a hitchhiker he figures on feeding him when he picks him up.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. A man who usually picks up somebody who is hitchhiking, they usually figure on feeding him.
Mr. HUBERT. These people didn't feed you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I try to have money in my pocket when I am hitchhiking.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was in the afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. What part of the afternoon.
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been early afternoon or getting toward dark? This time of the year it gets dark early; it did at that time.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I know.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you had been with him about 7 1/2 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get the time straight here a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought we did have it straight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not straight.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can't get this straight. You rode through the night of the 23d?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Until the man left you off on the morning of the 24th on the west side of St. Louis on Highway 66; is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. It was daylight then, and you had been with that man since about 8 o'clock the night before. Now, do you remember the time that he left you off? I think you stated that, didn't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not exactly sure what the time was. Probably about 6 or 6:30; something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you rode with this other man from that time or about a half hour after that time, you said; so that is about 7 o'clock on the morning of the 24th, you rode with him about 7 1/2 hours to Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So then we can reconstruct that you must have reached Chicago or nearby Chicago at approximately half past 2 or 3 in the afternoon.
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been in there somewhere.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had stopped a little while for lunch.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And gas and so forth. What do you think is the fair time to state, Larry?
Mr. CRAFARD. How's that?
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Mr. HUBERT. What do you think is the fair time to state that the man let you off in Chicago, given the time schedule that we have been able to work out to the extent that it helps your memory? You were there. What we are trying to do is to get the facts.
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been about 2:30, 3 o'clock, because I got through Chicago all right without any trouble.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't take you through Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I bypassed most of Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you do that?
Mr. CRAFARD. On a couple alternate routes.
Mr. HUBERT. With hitchhikers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Different rides.
Mr. HUBERT. Different rides?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How many?
Mr. CRAFARD. I got three or four different rides in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. With these several rides around Chicago, bypassing it, how long did it take you to get around Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably 2 or 3 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. And these were all short ones?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall your next long one that really took you out of Chicago good?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had a ride carried me over to Lansing.
Mr. HUBERT. What distance is that from Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not sure of the exact distance.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did that man pick you up, a woman, or whoever it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a man. It must have been getting on toward night; it must have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Toward 9, or night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Night. It must have been getting toward dark. It was getting dark pretty quick at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that man alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had that ride clean on from Chicago to Lansing, Mich.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get to Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, it was night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You weren't at your destination yet, were you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay in Lansing very long?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not too long. I had to pretty well walk through quite a bit of Lansing; about an hour and a half walk, I guess it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Well----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You walked for an hour and a half?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you had two bags with you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't attempt to take any streetcars or buses?
Mr. CRAFARD. No city buses running when I got there.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you judge that it was too late for the buses?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I think it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it after midnight?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think so; I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a man, too, you think?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you have supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think we must have stopped; I think we stopped before we got to Lansing at a care to get supper.
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Mr. HUBERT. How far out of Lansing? If you don't remember the miles, you might tell us about how long before he dropped you off.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know that, either.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been 8 or 4 hours. Probably about halfway between Chicago and Lansing.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you were with him about 8 hours, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think so; I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And he picked you up about dark?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; that is about a 400- or 500-mile ride.
Mr. HUBERT. He picked you up about dark in Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just about toward dark.
Mr.HUBERT. Five in the afternoon?
Mr.CRAFARD. It must have been 5 or 5:30.
Mr. HUBERT. So it was something like midnight or shortly after when you got to Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say about halfway between; that is when you had lunch or supper?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Or about 8 o'clock, do you think; 9 o'clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been about 8--8 or 8:30--something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that Oswald had been shot?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had heard that Oswald had been shot Sunday evening.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been while I was getting through Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you hear that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Over the radio.
Mr. HUBERT. What radio?
Mr. CRAFARD. The car radio.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that Ruby had done it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't find out who had done it until the following Monday, the following morning, Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you find that out?
Mr. CRAFARD. I heard that over the radio.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, Larry, I suppose all of those cars you were in had radios, didn't they?
Mr. CRAFARD. A lot of people don't listen to the radio when they are riding like that. That was the first I'd heard of it---was Sunday evening, the first I heard Oswald had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Sunday afternoon, wasn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. You said it was while you were working your way through Chicago.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which took you two or three different cars; about 2 hours or so?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was in one of those that you heard it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no announcement that Ruby had done it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so, because I didn't know Ruby had done it until Monday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you find that out?
Mr. CRAFARD. I heard that over the news.
Mr. HUBERT. In a car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. During the night when you were driving from Chicago to Lansing, during the period from 5 in the afternoon to about midnight, didn't you hear any radio announcements about any of this matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that car have a radio in it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
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Mr. HUBERT. Wasn't it playing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss the shooting?
Mr. CRAFARD. After I found out that Oswald had been shot we discussed it a little bit. We couldn't understand. Both of us, as far as I can recall---the gentleman I was riding with and myself--we both said we would like to have seen him come to trial.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to the man that you were from Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it customary for hitchhikers to discuss what is a subject common to them, and that is where you have been and where you are going?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't you, in fact, do that with this man; tell him you were from Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall whether I did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. There is a difference between telling us that you don't know and that you did not.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I say. I don't recall whether I did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. So, really, it is not that you are saying to us that you didn't, but just that you don't remember?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, I don't recall whether I had been doing so. I more than likely did, because it is usually something that they say; it is a subject that most people would discuss--where their destination is and where they have come from.
Mr. HUBERT. And I would think that if you did, if there was a possibility that you did, and you mentioned that you were from Dallas, that that would be another topic of conversation that might be interesting between two people riding along that way.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that you had been in the city at which the President was killed.
Mr. CRAFARD. We would have discussed that.
Mr. HUBERT. Doesn't that refresh your memory on the subject?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn't, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You still don't remember?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Talking to that man about the fact that you were in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having any indication that it was known who had shot Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to anyone about the fact that it was a nightclub owner?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the radio remain on after you heard this announcement?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember whether the radio stayed on, or whether he turned it off, or what.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, what you are telling us--it is your best memory now that you heard it over the radio that Oswald had been shot. That is as much as you did hear?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not hear who had done it or even the type of person who had done it, or what business the person was in who had done it, and that you never discussed it with anybody that you rode with in any one of those rides in Chicago and with the ride to Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I recall, I don't recall--I lmagine it was discussed, but I don't recall discussing it. I don't remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's put it this way: If you had discussed with anybody the killing of Oswald, the man accused of killing Oswald, you would remember that now, wouldn't you, Larry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would, if I discussed anything about who had been
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accused of it, but, like I say, the first knowledge I had of who had shot Oswald was Monday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that in a moment. Now, you had to go through Lansing, and you say it took but an hour and a half?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your next hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I can remember, I had a series of short rides, 20 or 25 miles to a ride.
Mr. HUBERT. How far along did these series of short rides take you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I probably traveled about 60 or 70 miles before I got a good ride.
Mr. HUBERT. That point, 60 or 75 miles beyond Lansing being the same point at which you got a good ride, was what place?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a large city, a small town?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a small place as far as I can remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the last hitch you had?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I got one more after that. I think that one carried me to Mount Pleasant.
Mr. HUBERT. To Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How far is Mount Pleasant from Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps we can get it by approaching the times. Apparently you left Lansing about an hour and a half after you got there, after you got there about midnight or so, and correct me if I am wrong. We could assume that you left Lansing with a series of short rides which took you 60 miles, approximately 1:30 to 2 o'clock on the morning of the 25th, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, it must have been about that.
Mr. HUBERT. And would you care to estimate for us as to how long it took you with the series of short rides to cover the 60 miles to which you have referred?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be an hour and a half, 2 hours, 2 hours and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps it would help if you look at it in this way. Do you remember whether the next long ride that took you into Mount Pleasant you got before or after daylight?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was before daylight.
Mr. HUBERT. It was still dark?
Mr. CRAFARD. I walked about--where this guy let me off at it was about 5 miles from where there was any light and I walked up where there was light to get a ride.
Mr. HUBERT. I didn't quite understand that.
The man who picked you up 60 miles on the other side of Lansing let you off before light?
Mr. CRAFARD. I walked about 5 miles before I got a ride with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it light when you got a ride with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so. I have lost some time somewhere between leaving Dallas and getting there because I didn't get into Clare until 9:30 at night. It was 9:30 at night when I got into Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. At the present time, you are telling us that you picked up this last long ride took you into Mount Pleasant. Let's find out what time you got into Mount Pleasant, because, you see, you told us you don't know what place it was where you picked up that ride, except that it was somewhat about 60 miles on the other side of Lansing.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I didn't get into Clare until, I think it was 9 or 9:30 at night. I've lost at least 8 hours of time.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course I don't know that you have because I don't know what geography or distance we are talking about.
Mr. CRAFARD. The distance isn't that great. It only is 15 miles from Mount Pleasant to Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's start this way. What time did you get to Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was about 8:30 at night when I got to Mount Pleasant because it was 9:30, I'm almost positive it was 9 or 9:30 when I got
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into Clare, because I went over to my cousin's house in Clare. I remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. It was before dark and before dawn when you picked up the driver somewhere approximately 6 miles on the other side of Lansing who took you into Mount Pleasant. Now, how long did you ride with him, and how far is it between the two?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I mean. I have lost some time earlier somewhere, because it is not that long a ride. I could have made it from Lansing to Clare and back again during the day.
Mr. HUBERT. Larry, we want to get it straight.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I am trying to do, myself.
Mr. HUBERT. If you want to figure out any place where you have made any mistake about the time----
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I was trying to do.
Mr. HUBERT. We can start all over again. It seemed to fit as I went along, but I wasn't aware of the distances.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask him this question: I understand you said that you walked through Lansing.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did it take you to walk through Lansing?
Mr. CRAFARD. About an hour, hour and a half, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that time the cars were not running, the transit, the public transportation was not running, or were you out of money at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I still had money I have to eat on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lansing is how far from Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. Lansing isn't over, I don't believe it is over 225 miles from Clare to Lansing.
Mr. HUBERT. It may be that you are making a mistake, Larry. Let's see if we can't refresh your memory from the time you got that last long hitch that took you to Mount Pleasant because you remember getting to Mount Pleasant at night, about 8:30.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that, you say, is a run of what--about 5 hours, 6 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe it would take that long.
Mr. HUBERT. So if you got there at about 8:30 at night, then either you didn't get any hitches for a long period of time, or else something else happened.
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm just trying to----
Mr. HUBERT. Because you told us, and if it is not so, why we want you to correct it. Everybody can make mistakes.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I was trying to do.
Mr. HUBERT. You said that you picked up this ride at a point 60 miles outside of Lansing and into Mount Pleasant prior to dawn on the 25th. Now, maybe that is wrong. Maybe you got that ride late in the day. Let's put it this way. Was that a continuous ride straight on?
Mr. CRAFARD. It carried me straight on through to Mount Pleasant.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stop at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall. It isn't that long a run across there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stop for lunch or anything of that sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. And it is about a 6-hour run?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe it is that long a run across there.
Mr. HUBERT. If you got there at 8:30 at night, and if you are firm about that----
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm positive it was 8:30 or 9 o'clock when I got into Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about Mount Pleasant. You had no difficulty getting from Mount Pleasant to Clare, did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say an hour would suffice for that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Plenty, plenty of time.
Mr. HUBERT. You got there between 8:30 and 9, that is into Clare, right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. Let's back off from there, then. Did you spend any time in Mount Pleasant before leaving for Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you must have left Clare about 7:30.
Mr. CRAFARD. I got into Clare about----
Mr. HUBERT. I mean left Mount Pleasant about 7:30, right?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I left Clare Mount Pleasant about 8 or 8:30. It was about 9 o'clock when I got into Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you start on your way to Clare immediately after this man left you off at Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And had you run directly through without stopping from the time the man picked you up and dropped you off in Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, 15 miles.
Mr. HUBERT. 15 miles? No; I am talking about the run from----
Mr. CRAFARD. From Mount Pleasant to Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I'm talking about the run to Mount Pleasant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From Lansing to Mount Pleasant.
Mr. HUBERT. A point outside of Lansing to Mount Pleasant. That is about a 4-hour run, you say.
Mr. CRAFARD. At the most, from Lansing to Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. That last long hitch was about a 4-hour hitch?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the last long ride was maybe 2 1/2 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. 2 1/2 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. Or 3 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was the man who brought you into Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mount Pleasant.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, if you got to Mount Pleasant about 8, he must have picked you up about 5 in the afternoon.
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Then there is some mistake in timing of about 12 hours.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I was saying. I've lost some time there.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps it needs a lithe clarifying. Let me touch on another point.
Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to me I got mixed up on my routes going out of Oklahoma City.
Mr. HUBERT. Think about it a moment and let me touch upon something else before we go back to it. I think you said that you heard, that Ruby had done this on the morning of the 25th.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right,
Mr. HUBERT. Now, could you tell us how you heard it? Did you hear it by newspaper, radio, television, or what?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not sure whether it was over the radio or whether I saw it in the newspaper.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that must have made a terrific impact on you, because, after all, that was your boss.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So I suggest that if you will just put your mind to it, you can tell us pretty well how it was and where it was. Was it in a restaurant or automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I saw it in the newspaper, saw something about Oswald and then the assassination or something like that, and then I read the rest of it.
Mr. HUBERT. You bought a newspaper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think so. I must have.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't you keep it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so because I didn't have one with me when I got into Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it must have been. It was about 8 in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. 8 in the morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that, somewhere.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you with anybody, do you know?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I was walking through a small town.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your reaction to it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was pretty hard to believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell anybody about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think something was said to somebody I was riding with about it or something. Somebody picked me up shortly after I saw it, somebody I was riding with, and we had stopped in a cafe or something. I am pretty sure I discussed it with the person I was riding with.
Mr. HUBERT. You are pretty sure now?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that I stated to him that it seemed almost impossible to believe. It seemed to be awfully hard to believe it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell that person that you knew him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell that person that you had started to hitchhike up?
Mr. CRAFARD. I to1d him I had worked for him, that I had left the day after Kennedy was shot, coming up from Texas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you with that person very long? Was he the one, for example, who took you into Mount Pleasant?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let me see. I think you have refreshed your memory to some extent. You tell us now you are quite sure it was a newspaper.
Mr. CRAFARD. I am pretty sure it was.
Mr. HUBERT. That gave you the first information.
Mr. CRAFARD. I still think that--I'm almost positive I got mixed up on my routes in Oklahoma City somewhere, or just out of Oklahoma City.
Mr. HUBERT. We will try to straighten out that route business a little later. You are quite clear that you arrived at Clare, Mich., about 9 o'clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that your destination from the start?
Mr. CRAFARD. My main destination was about Kalkaska, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. How far is that from Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is about 3 hours running.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you stop on the night of the 25th, about 9 o'clock, at Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at my counsin's at Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your cousin's name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Clifford Roberts.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the address?
Mr. CRAFARD. 307 East Seventh Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Were they expecting you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long since you last saw them?
Mr. CRAFARD. At the time it had been, I think it had been, several years since I saw him at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know they were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. They wrote to my folks while I was living in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it-----
Mr. CRAFARD. Wait a minute; excuse me. I saw him before I went to work, before I went to work with the carnival. My sister told me where they was living at there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you intend to stop with him that night or just to visit?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I figured when I got in there at that time of night, I knew what the road to Kalkaska was---it was pretty rough overnight, so I figured I would stop. I would be perfectly welcome.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they recognize you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to them about the Ruby matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. We talked quite a bit of it that night.
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Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. About the fact that I told them I had worked for him. It was kind of a surprise to them to know somebody who worked for him; asked me what kind of a guy he was, and everything.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them?
Mr. CRAFARD. What I could, the best I could, what kind of a guy he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them under what circumstances--did you tell them the circumstances under which you had left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes: told them how I had left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they express any surprise about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; because they knew me.
Mr. HUBERT. They didn't seem to be concerned about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was my cousin and his wife.
Mr. HUBERT. Just the two?
Mr. CRAFARD. And their children.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are their children?
Mr. CRAFARD. The oldest one, I think, is 7 or 8, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. No friends came over?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe there was anybody over that night.
Mr. HUBERT. You did stay there that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go to bed?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been about an hour and a half after I got there, 2 hours.
Mr. HUBERT. And you slept through the night?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you remain there the next day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I went on up to Harrison.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the direction of Kalkaska?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; along the best traveled road.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you leave Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. Probably about 9:30 or 10 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Did your cousin Roberts know your destination?
Mr. CRAFARD. He knew where I was going to go on to my sister's.
Mr. HUBERT. He knew you were going to hitchhike?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he been in touch with your sister, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe he had been in touch with her for quite a while.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, did he know she was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. She might have told her that he was living up there---I think mother told my sister where he lived, or something.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the distance between Clare and your sister's place in Kalkaska, is it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Kalkaska, about 100, 120 miles.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a rural community?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. No cities along that route?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, there is one about 60 miles from it.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Cadillac. It is about 60 miles from Traverse City.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have enough money at that time to get a bus ride in?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You had about $4 or $5 left, didn't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had a couple of dollars left.
Mr. HUBERT. $2?
Mr. CRAFARD. $2 or $3.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you attempt to borrow any money from your cousin to take the trip?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he offer to give you any?
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Mr. CRAFARD. No; he was in no position to. He had a large family.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make inquiry as to how much it would cost?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you knew that that was a bad road for hitchhikers.
Mr. CRAFARD. At night, I said.
Mr. HUBERT. It is all right in the day?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fairly decent road; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make it that day into Kalkaska?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went up to Harrison that day and spent a couple of hours with an aunt I have in Harrison, and then went to Kalkaska.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jean Eaton.
Mr. HUNBERT. Is she married?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her married name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Eaton.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. Do you know her husband's first name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ed.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he living with her so that it is Mrs. Ed Eaton?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does she live?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know the name of the street she lives on. They get their mail through a post office box.
Mr. HUBERT. You spent a couple of hours there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you hitchhiked there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How far is Harrison from Kalkaska?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 90, 95 miles, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to Kalkaska that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall whether I went that night or whether I stayed with my aunt and uncle that night.
Mr. HUBERT. We are talking now about Tuesday, the 26th of November.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you got there Tuesday or Wednesday?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember sleeping at your aunt's house?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have spent on several occasions, I have spent the night with my aunt and uncle.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean on that occasion.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember for sure whether I stayed with my aunt.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said for a couple of hours there, and I was wondering whether you had slept there that night. You said you visited a couple of hours.
Mr. CRAFARD. I went up there, I got up there before the kids come home for lunch.
Mr. HUBERT, Did you stay 2 hours or more?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I spent the rest of the day there.
Mr. HUBERT. And slept there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. Then I went up to my sister's the next day.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody--did your aunt and uncle have a car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was working.
Mr. HUBERT. You weren't able to get a ride?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not with them.
Mr. HUBERT. You had to hitchhike?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBET. You didn't even at that point consider bus travel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So then you got to your sister's house on Wednesday, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time of day?
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Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been about 2:30 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon, imagine.
Mr. HUBERT. She didn't know you were coming?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is in Kalkaska?
Mr. CRAFARD. She lives about, I think about 20 miles out of Kalkaska, or she did at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. So that when you got to Kalkaska you still had to go another 20 miles?
Mr. CRAFARD. About that, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a rural road?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was about---most of it was a well-traveled road, one of the main roads through the State.
Mr. HUBERT. From Kalkaska to where she lived?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was then about two miles off the road.
Mr. HUBERT. She lives off the main highway?
Mr. CRAFARD. She did at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she live in a log cabin or something of that kind?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was living in a farm house.
Mr. HUBERT. Farm house. About 20 miles from Kalkaska?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; a little place called Mancelona.
Mr. HUBERT. Mancelona?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It is in County Antrim; isn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her about your experience?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was her reaction?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, about the same as everybody else.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she know about Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure whether she did or not. They didn't have their radio or TV either, so I don't know. I think they had heard about it, but I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, she didn't know you had been working for him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that place that the FBI man interviewed you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What day was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is where he picked me up. He picked me up there on Thanksgiving Day.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did he pick you up? Did he arrest you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. They came out the house about 7 o'clock Thanksgiving Day.
Mr. HUBERT. 7 o'clock at night?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the morning, and he had me go for an interview.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was about 10 miles from there. It is a little town where the police station was. I don't remember the name of the town.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how they located you?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how they located you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, they went to my aunt's.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they----
Mr. CRAFARD. That is one thing I know.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they come to go to your aunt's?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I was in Dallas, I had got a letter from my cousin, I had left the envelope laying when I left there. They found her address.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean Roberts?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; my aunt's niece, Mickey--my aunt's daughter.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Gail Eaton.
Mr. HUBERT. She is the one who lives in Harrison?
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Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. She had written you or you had written her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had wrote her, and then she had wrote me.
Mr. HUBERT. The letter you wrote to her I don't think you mailed.
Mr. CRAFARD. I mailed a couple of them. One or two anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you left one behind, didn't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I might have; I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what day they went to your aunt's house?
Mr. CRAFARD. From what I understood, it was the night before they talked to me.
Mr. HUBERT. And she told them, I suppose, that you were going up to your sister's house?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And then the next morning they interviewed you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that interview take?
Mr. CRAFARD. About, I believe, 4 1/2 to 5 hours I talked to the men there. That is when they took me back out to the house, and then he asked me to go into Kalkaska the following morning and meet him so he could take some pictures with a Polaroid camera.
Mr. HUBERT. And he did so?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took some pictures, and I talked to him between an hour and a half and 2 hours again that morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he go over with you the details of your trip up by hitchhiking?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe he developed that too closely.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been interviewed by the FBI since?
Mr. CRAFARD. I talked to an agent last Saturday at my home in Dallas, Oreg.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that you have not talked----
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I think this man who had interviewed you, this FBI man who interviewed you in Kalkaska, had asked you to keep in touch with them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How was that to be done?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dropping him a card or line letting him know where I was at to get in touch with me.
Mr. HUBERT. That is if you moved?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay with your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was there a couple of days. Then I went back down to Clare. I think I spent the night there, and then I was going to go to Florida, and I was hitchhiking, and this guy picked me up, and he said it was pretty nasty out, and he said it was too cold and nasty out to hitchhike. He said, "I have got a room over here. I won't be using it tonight, and you'll be welcome to use it, and then I will bring you back on the road in the morning." I went out there with him, and he was working with an oil field drilling crew, and one of the men had quit, and they needed a man, so I went to work that night. Then I worked up until, with them up until, about the 17th or 18th of February.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. The main office was out of Mount Pleasant, Michigan. We were moving over the southern portion of the State of Michigan.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you let the FBI know where you were?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wrote to them and told them they could contact me through the North American Drilling office in Mount Pleasant, Michigan. When I left there in February I went to Dallas, Tex. I was at the trial, and then I went out to----
Mr. HUBERT. How did you go to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I hitchhiked.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you go to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was on a personal matter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn't get that answer.
Mr. HUBERT. It was on a personal matter.
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Mr. CRAFARD. I was trying to locate my wife and children.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in February?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you worked for them until--we may he able to clarify that. I just want to hit the highlights right now.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I left in March.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask this question. What is the name of the drilling company?
Mr. CRAFARD. North American Drilling Company. I spent a week or 2 weeks around Clare there before I left. I believe it was in March, the latter part of April.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are sure you got that job by accident?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it was purely accident.
Mr. HUBERT. You stayed with them until February, as I understand it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I worked with them until about the 18th of February.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you quit, or what happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had bought a rattletrap of a car, and we had moved locations, and I had car trouble. I was staying about 40 miles from where we was working, and I had car trouble and I missed out, I missed about five days of work, and in the meantime they got another man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This drilling company was drilling for oil?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you get the subpena to appear at Ruby's trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. I got that in Dallas, Tex. at the courthouse, at the county courthouse.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your trip to Dallas was not for the purpose of attending the trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not--mostly no.
Mr. HUBERT. You say not mostly.
Mr. CRAFARD. That wasn't my main reason for going.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been connected by anybody to appear at the trial prior to the time you left the North American Drilling Company?
Mr. CRAFARD. Eva Grant's sister had wrote to my cousin, Mrs. Eaton, wanting information as to my whereabouts so they could locate me.
Mr. HUBERT. And she gave it to them?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she refused to.
Mr. HUBERT. But your cousin let you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. They told me about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Then when I arrived in Dallas, I went up to find out what it was all about. I didn't know for sure what it was about.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you go to see?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went to the courthouse, and then I talked--the first one I saw was Andy. Then I talked to the lawyer, Mr. Phil Burleson, and he subpenaed me then.
Mr. HUBERT. About what date was that, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. March 10, I believe it was; yes; it was on my birthday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it take you from the 18th of February or so to get to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed around Clare for, I think, a couple a week or two. It was, let's see, it must have been about the 7th of March because I was only 3 days going from Clare to Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Your purpose in going to Dallas was to try to find your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you succeed in that, by the way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven't yet?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When you saw Burleson then, he told you he wanted you to remain?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he place you under that subpena?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did they use you at the trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us roughly what the substance of your testimony was at the trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. To the effect that I had took the pictures of the "Impeach Earl Warren" sign and to the effect that he had only planned on shipping one of his dogs to California.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all that was brought out?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was about the main gist of my testimony.
Mr. HUBERT. You were a witness for the defense, I take it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you subjected to any cross-examination?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think there were two or three questions put to me on cross- examination.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to talk to Ruby then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Eva?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Andy Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Andy.
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw him before--I don't believe I talked to him after I appeared on the witness stand.
Mr. HUBERT. He was the first one you contacted?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was the first one I saw.
Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas. Did you go over to the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I went to the courthouse.
Mr. HUBERT. And you saw him at the courthouse?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy saw me; I didn't see him. Andy saw me and he recognized me.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. Who else did you talk to while you were in Dallas on this last occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. I talked to the Grants, to the Rubys--the brothers and sisters.
Mr. HUBERT. What about?
Mr. CRAFARD. I talked to them after the trial was over, after I had appeared on the witness stand.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't talk to them before?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I think I had saw Miss Grant one time, and at the time when I did Burleson was standing right beside me when I spoke to her, let her know I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she know where you could be located?
Mr. CRAFARD. She didn't know, but Burleson did. While I was in Dallas, you mean?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. Burleson knew.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. Burleson knew.
Mr. HUBERT. She didn't call you to locate you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in Dallas before you testified?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see, I landed in Dallas on Sunday. I was in Dallas for about 4 days all together before I testified.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in Dallas before you contacted Burleson or met Burleson?
Mr. CRAFARD. I arrived in Dallas Sunday, and I contacted Burleson Tuesday.
Mr. HUBERT. And you testified on Thursday?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left on what day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was, I think I spent--let's see, I left Dallas the following Wednesday, I believe it was. I went to California where I stopped and visited a very good friend of the family's. I spent--I arrived there Thursday night about 2 o'clock in the morning. He had just got home from work, and
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then I spent Thursday night, Friday, Saturday night there, and then I left there Sunday. They were making a trip up north, and they took me up north quite a ways with them, and then I hitchhiked up home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were in Dallas, Tex, where did you stay?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the mission most of the time.
Mr. HUBERT. What mission is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. City mission.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is on Ervay Street.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean it is a religious organization?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Runs sort of a hostel or hotel for----
Mr. CRAFARD. Place for guys on the road to stay.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you manage for money on your trip from up north to Dallas, and Dallas on down west, and then again north to Washington?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had some money when I left Dallas, when I left Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did you have.
Mr. CRAFARD. $40, $50, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work at anytime after you left Clare?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, no; I'didn't work after I left Clare.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't earn any money during that period?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I haven't worked since about the 18th of February, I think it is, at a job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else did you see in Dallas beside the lawyers, Andy Armstrong, and the Ruby family?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw the people around the mission, and i say, I did work i day in Dallas, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where, and how much did you make?
Mr. CRAFARD. I made about $7; I think I got about $7 out of it. It was out of the labor pool.
Mr. HUBERT. How much money did you have when you got to Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was just about broke when I got into Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you manage to live?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is why I said I stayed at the mission.
Mr. HUBERT. It still required money for food.
Mr. CRAFARD. It is a place where they feed you and they give you a place to sleep.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody in Dallas give you any money?
Mr. CRAFARD. After I had appeared, after I had appeared on the witness stand, Eva Grant gave me, her and her brother all together, I think gave me $8.
Mr. HUBERT. $8?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right; all total.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Money to eat on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask them or they asked you?
Mr. CRAFARD. They asked me how I was living, and I told them, and I told them---they give me money to eat on, and I spent Monday, Tuesday--Sunday, I think Sunday, Monday and Tuesday night that I slept in the Carousel Club. They gave me the key to the club so I could stay there.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did; Eva?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the club in operation at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after you testified?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had it been changed from the time you had seen it before?
Mr. CRAFARD. There had been no redecoration or anything. I don't think they called it the Carousel. There was a Club de Copa or something, they had run it a little while, and then they revoked her liquor license.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the interior of the club, did you notice any changes?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the safe still there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was Andy; was he still there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; Andy was working some place else; I have no idea where.
Mr. HUBERT. When you left, did you return the key to her?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ralph Paul or George Senator while you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw George Senator at the courthouse, that was all.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see Ralph Paul or talk to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember seeing him. I know I never talked to him, and I don't remember seeing him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to any of the strippers or the waitresses who used to be there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Think hard now. Was there anybody else that you talked to in Dallas outside of the people you saw in connection with the Ruby trial?
Mr. CRAFARD. These people that I saw around the mission there I talked to is all, and the. police department. I asked them to put a tracer on my wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Mr. Case?
Mr. CRAFARD. Case?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bob Case.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You just arrived in Dallas from Oregon, I think when you were served with these papers to come here?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I had been home for a little while.
Mr. HUBERT. How long?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had arrived there, I had been there, let's see, I got in Monday--it would have been 2 weeks this last Monday that I had been home. I spent my time looking for a job since I have been home.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven't found any yet?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been in trouble in your life in the sense of being charged with any offense?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; sir, I have got two times that I have been picked up, picked up on a rag charge.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. CRAFARD. Vagrancy charge; Findlay, Ohio, and drunk in a public street in Dallas, Oreg. That is the only two times I have ever been charged.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you actually prosecuted on those two cases?
Mr. CRAFARD. I paid a fine on the drunk on public street, and the other one I was just--I spent 72 hours in the jail and was let go.
Mr. HUBERT. The police have not reported to you on the tracer on your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was your wife last known to you to be in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn't know she was in Dallas. I had an idea she was around the Dallas area somewhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left Dallas on November 23, did you have an idea that your wife was around the area at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you come to believe that she was around the area?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I had wrote to my folks asking them for information, if she had been in touch with them, if they knew where she was, and I had a cousin who had been back out west and visited my folks and they told me, they was telling me, they had gotten a letter from this woman in Cuba, Mo., where my wife had been, so when I left Michigan, I went to Cuba, Mo., and I talked to the woman there and, as far as she knew, my wife had went back to the Dallas area, the last she knew of her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had that been?
Mr. CRAFARD. It had been, this was Christmastime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is when the woman in Cuba, Mo., had seen her?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was the last time.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the children still with the woman in Cuba, Mo.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the children was with my wife; she had the children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn't contact her brother?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I tried to, but I couldn't find out. Didn't know where he was living or had no way of getting in touch with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he moved from the last time?
Mr. CRAFARD. The last I knew where he was at he was working on a ranch, and I never could get ahold of the ranch. Nobody had ever heard of it out around Carrollton, and nobody had ever heard of the place. I knew he was there because I had been out there with him when he got the job, but I didn't have any transportation, so I had no way of going out there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you thought she was in the Dallas area. Where specifically in the Dallas area did you have in mind?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is a little place about 30 miles out of Dallas called, I think, Greenfield, or something like that, that I was told she was around. She had got a letter from her in that area in February.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had?
Mr. CRAFARD. This daughter of this woman in Missouri.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did the woman, did she, show you the letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. She couldn't find the letter, she couldn't locate it. She put it up in some of her stuff and couldn't locate the letter at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you check out around Greenville for her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't get out to Greenville.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you contact the Greenville police?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell the Dallas tracer people?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That the last you had heard she was in Greenville?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't know until you arrived at Cuba, Mo., that your wife might be in Dallas, did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you left Michigan on your way to Dallas you really didn't have any idea that your wife would be in Dallas. You expected she might be in Cuba, Mo.
Mr. CRAFARD. When I left Michigan my destination was Cuba, Mo., as far as I knew. As far as I knew, my wife was in Cuba, Mo. or around there some place close.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left Cuba, Mo., the only information you had about your wife was that she was somewhere near, might be somewhere in the vicinity of Greenville, Tex.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Around the Dallas area is what--she had got this letter from Greenville, and she was in the vicinity, as far as they knew, in the Greenville area of Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The letter was not written by your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it had been written by my wife to this daughter of this woman in Cuba, Mo.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you told the letter said?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just, she just said, she didn't say anything about what the letter said. She just said it had been wrote from Greenville, and that this girl had wrote back to my wife, and the letter had come back, nobody at that address, no forwarding address.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What direction is Greenville from Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is out sort of the northeast of Dallas, about 35 miles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What route is that on?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. I don't think it is on a main route. It is, I think, on a smaller highway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard of this place Greenville, Tex., before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I knew approximately where it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you happened to hear of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. When my wife and I were in Dallas, I had worked for this
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outfit that built these portable buildings and they built some over in that area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any friends your wife had in Greenville?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This letter that the woman in Cuba, Mo., received, did it give any indication of how your wife was supporting herself or what her connection was with the party that she was staying with?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, it didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The woman in Cuba, how did she happen to be friendly with your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. My wife was on the road hitchhiking when she picked her up with the boys. Her and her husband picked my wife up with the boys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was about 6 months--it would have been in the middle of the summer last year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, did your wife keep in contact with this woman from time to time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. She left, the wife, the Children with this woman for a while, and she was getting a child-support check for her oldest son, my stepson, and she turned the check over to the woman in Missouri.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the woman come to know about your mother in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I guess my wife said something about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, had the woman in Cuba, Mo., written your mother to tell your mother that your wife had left, or something, or what was the occasion for that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she wrote trying to find out what kind of a person my wife was more than anything. I be1ieve that was her main reason for writing my mother. From the information I got from her, when my wife would come back, my wife would be gone 2 to 3 weeks, she would come back at least once a month with the check, to sign the check and turn it over to the woman, and she said when my wife did come back she apparently did appear to have quite a bit of money, and always had new clothes and real good clothes, but she said she appeared--she did not. appear to have a job of any kind, because of the fact she would come back maybe on a weekend or maybe it would be in the middle of the week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name of this woman in Cuba, Mo.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't even remember right now. I have got it wrote down in that little book, but I can't even remember right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that the lady in Cuba last saw your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was Christmas Day.
Mr. HUBERT. Cuba, Mo.?
Mr. GRIFFIN. She saw her Christmastime?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. My wife come back and got the children on Christmas Day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She also got a letter from her about that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. The letter was received after that, I understand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When the woman in Cuba, Mo., saw your wife at Christmas-time, did your wife say where she was going?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as the woman knew, she was going to Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a gift by the name of Gloria that was with Ruby on November 20?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't give you any particular dates, but I know a girl Gloria that he took out, that he went out with a couple of times.
Mr. HUBERT. Is she the same girl as you have identified in this exhibit which has been marked----
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Gloria McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The last name is McDonald.
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Mr. CRAFARD. I didn't know what her last name was, I couldn't say, but her first name was Gloria.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did she live?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either Oak Lawn, the Oak Lawn area, or the Oak Ridge area, I am not sure which.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she live alone or with someone?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I knew, she was living alone.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask when you say something like that, do you mean you don't know or you have some reason to believe she was living alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know, I will put it that way.
Mr. HUBERT. You really don't know?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Because the way you put it, you see, you infer she is living alone, and if you really have no knowledge about it then you don't know.
Mr. CRAFARD. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. She was the girl that you had breakfast with one morning at the Lucas B&B; isn't that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When, how long after you began to work for Jack Ruby, did you become aware that Gloria was somebody whom he saw from time to time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Gloria come to the club in answer to an ad, I am not sure. But I believe that is where, how, I met her, when she come to the club in answer to one of the ads we put in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Along those lines now, is it your impression that Ruby didn't know this girl Gloria prior to the time she answered an ad?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is my impression, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when she came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. But your thought is that Ruby did not know her prior to the time that you went to work for Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is what I understood.
Mr. HUBERT. When we say Gloria we are talking about this girl with the striped dress you have identified in Exhibits 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E ; right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many waitresses did Jack employ at any one time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Counting the cocktail gifts, there were about six or seven gifts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, of these six or seven girls did any of them--were any of them employed at the Carousel Club at the entire time you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many girls left his employ during the time you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two or three left his employ, not counting Jada, the stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember which girls left his employ?
Mr. CRAFARD. One I was with quite often there, we had meals together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was her name, again?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember her name. I believe there was one other one there. I would like to change one thing. The name you mentioned, the name of that girl, I never did remember the name, the name Gloria. She worked as a cocktail gift for 2 or 3 nights, and she never made anything at all, couldn't make enough money to buy cigarettes with, and she left.
Mr. HUBERT. The girl in Exhibit 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E was Gloria, wasn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And she was there only 3 days?
Mr. CRAFARD. She worked for him for 2 or 3 nights, and then she left. She couldn't even make enough money to buy cigarettes.
Mr. HUBERT. But then she continued to see him on a social basis?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Wherewas she working, do you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. After she left him where did she go to work?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
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Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether she went to work or you just don't know anything about her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any indication that Jack was supporting her in any way?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack placed these ads for waitresses, was it that he needed help?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had to run a continuous ad for girls. I think mostly he was wanting to get girls to start them as strippers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he would sort of start them out as waitresses first, is that it, if they showed any prospects----
Mr. CRAFARD. He did with a couple of them, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the waitresses, did he have some requirements for the waitresses as to their looks?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know. They were all fairly nice-looking girls, but I wouldn't say they were real beauties or anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he provide them with uniforms?
Mr. CRAFARD. About a week or 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated, he bought uniforms for the girls. But prior to that they hadn't wore uniforms.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They had no uniforms?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But they did have a common style of dress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of them wore slacks and a blouse or a sweater.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this "Washington, D.C., Exhibit 5201, April 1964, Deposition, C. L. Crafard," and I will sign my name to it.
(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5201 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Larry, I am going to show you what I have marked as Exhibit 5201. You will notice the picture of a girl there, a brunette, scantily clad. Is she wearing the uniform that you referred to that Jack bought?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the girl in that photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see anybody around the Carousel in an outfit like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that appear to be a picture of the inside of the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not as I know it, no. We didn't have all this back bar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph, 5201?
Mr. CRAFARD. This man looks familiar, but----
Mr. GRIFFIN. The man at the table looks familiar to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you probe your memory some and try to tell us why he looks familiar?
Mr. CRAFARD. He looks like somebody I saw in the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he be one of the men from Los Angeles that you referred to?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could be. I wouldn't swear to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often do you think that you saw that man around the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. It wasn't but a couple of times. It couldn't have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a picture of any club that you recognize in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. None that I have ever been in. I was never in any of the other clubs excpet to the Carousel and the Vegas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be sure that that is not a picture of any part of the Vegas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, it is not a picture of the Vegas. They didn't have a back bar there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see the man who appears to be a bartender in that picture?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I should know him because it looks like he looks like an older fellow who was around the club quite often with Jack, but I can't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness was referring to the picture identified as Exhibit 5201.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a fellow by the name of Ryan, who was friendly with Jack Ruby, and who also went by the name of Roy William Pike?
Mr. CRAFARD. William Ryan is familiar, but this other man, it wouldn't be Mickey?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan. Is that Mickey Ryan that worked the bar?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't say. The picture is really--if I would see the man together I might be able to----
Mr. HUBERT. When you say the man in the picture, which man are you talking about?
Mr. CRAFARD. The man who appears to be a bartender.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see if I understand. Do you make some association in your mind between the picture of the bartender here and the fellow you remember as Mickey Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. There is quite a similarity.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you are not---
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a place in Dallas called the Gun Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have heard mention of a place by that name, but I have never been there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of Jack's friends from Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you a bit more about the man seated at the table in the foreground of the picture identified as Exhibit 5201. Did I understand you to say he bore a resemblance to someone you had seen before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that someone was who?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't----
Mr. HUBERT. It was suggested to you that it might have been one of the people you identified as, earlier in this deposition as, having come from California and as having come in to see Ruby on several occasions, and to sit down and chat for a little while and then he would go off with them. Do you remember that testimony?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, is that man seated at the table as described by me a moment ago possibly one, of those men?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could possibly be, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is it about him that refreshes your memory so that you are able to say that he could possibly be that man from California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly his face; his facial features mostly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, did Jack Ruby know your full name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he know you?
Mr. CRAFARD. As Larry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know your last name at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so. I don't recall telling him. I did--I told him my last name when that letter came in from my cousin in Michigan, and he gave it to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Eva Grant know where to look for you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure except for the fact, like I say, I had left an envelope with my cousin's address at the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Andy knew your last name, didn't he?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Andy come to learn your last name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe on this same occasion with the letter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I asked you about the show "How Hollywood Makes Movies." What kind of a show was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That was, it showed a few of the different tricks and stunts that was used in moviemaking process, such as shooting a mirror without breaking
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the mirror, or shooting a glass off the bar counter, and how they broke a chair over a man's head and how a chair or table broke when a man was knocked into it, such as that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many actors did they have in this show?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was, I believe, six Hollywood personnel all together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the show last in terms of each performance?
Mr. CRAFARD. The show was approximately about 45 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much did they charge for admission?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they was charging 75 cents, if I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who conceived of the show?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, from what I knew of it, it was Craven and Miles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you know about Craven, what was his background?
Mr. CRAFARD. All I know he come from Hollywood, was supposed to be some producer from Hollywood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about the Miles fellow?
Mr. CRAFARD. Deke Miles, as far as I know, was a director from Hollywood, a Hollywood director.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to decide to go to Dallas, Tex., in the fall of 1963?
Mr. CRAFARD. Because I knew there was one of the biggest fairs in the country held in Dallas, Tex. and I had some friends working over at Dallas, Tex., and I figured this would be as good a place to get a job with a carnival as anywhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to Dallas the first time you moved there the year before?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was going there to have a reconciliation with my wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you stayed about 3 months; is that it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you live with her at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you live?
Mr. CRAFARD. Letot Trailer Park on Lombardy Lane.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did one of you own a house trailer?
Mr. CRAFARD. We rented a house trailer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you drive an automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Ruby bought the lumber from the dance-band show that closed, what was he going to use that lumber for?
Mr. CRAFARD. Remodeling on the inside of his Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he use it for that purpose?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do with the lumber?
Mr. CRAFARD. He stored it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he store it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Downstairs below the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make any effort to remodel?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was doing some remodelling while I was there, building a cloakroom. That was about all that was being done, building a cloakroom, while I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack Ruby ever away from his Carousel all day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember a day that I didn't see him at least once during the day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You do?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't, I say. I don't remember a day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But ordinarily Jack would come about 11:30 in the morning----
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Stay just a short while----
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And would be gone all day until sometime in the late evening?
Mr. CRAFARD. Usually; sometimes he would come back in the middle of the afternoon for a little while, or maybe he wouldn't come back until after the club opened at 7:30.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack actually have to do to manage the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. That I couldn't really say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it appear he had very much to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as the management of the club, to my knowledge, it shouldn't have took him more than 3 hours a day at the most, that is, including all the bookwork be would have to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he do the bookwork?
Mr. CRAFARD. He kept a set of books, but he had a bookkeeper to keep his books, an accountant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean--you mean he personally kept the books or somebody else made the entries?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andrew made most of the entries.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the 6 weeks or 2 months that you were there, how many different strippers did he have?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was mostly the same girls. He fired one and hired another one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the one that he fired?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was Jada.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And who did he hire in her place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after he fired Jada did Little Lynn come on?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was 2 or 3 days between them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could there have been more than that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been a week, I don't believe so--I don't believe it was much more than that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present during the incident that resulted in the firing of Jada?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were several different incidents that built up to that event.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were they, as you recall?
Mr. CRAARD. I don't know most of them, but the one instance I believe, Jack shut the lights out on her as she went too far with her disrobing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then did they have a right of some sort afterwards?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I was in the club, but I don't know--I didn't know what went on even.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you known Little Lynn before she was hired as a stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I met her one day and she was hired the next evening, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack known her before?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about her husband, Bruce Carlin, did you meet him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I met him at the same time I met Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did Bruce use to come to the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. When Little Lynn went to work for the club at first he was there almost every night--he was there every night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he get along with Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I never seen any difficulty between them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe Bruce Carlin?
Mr. CRAFARD. He seemed like a pretty likable young fellow to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Slightly; not very much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would he generally come and what time would he leave?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would usually, when he come in, he would be there when Little Lynn was on the stage, and he would leave, and she would go back in time for her to come back on the stage, and he would come back in again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he and Little Lynn go out some place together?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they went out a couple of times between her acts. I don't remember.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn remain around the club while Bruce was out?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; most of the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say Little Lynn worked for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, man; I believe it was 2 or 3 weeks. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So he had the same group of strippers except that Little Lynn replaced Jada?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He had three different M.C.'s?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Billy DeMar was one of them?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the M.C. is the same person as the comedian?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the band? Did he have the same band all the way through?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would say that while you were there there wasn't any other turnover in personnel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That you knew of.
I think you mentioned on two nights you ran the Vegas Club all by yourself.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were those two nights?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the dates. It was during the week, week nights. The one night I was the only one at the club, I didn't even have a band, all we had was the jukebox.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the bartender?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was doing the bartending.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And taking the tickets also?
Mr. CRAFARD. We didn't have any cover charge that night, just a jukebox and beer. The next night we had the band, and I had a waitress.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before the assassination of the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was the week before, but I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the reason that Jack didn't have anybody to run the Vegas Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. The club wasn't making any money. During the week it didn't make hardly any money, and that was the slowest night of the week for the club, and his sister was sick one night, so he had me go over and run the Vegas Club the first night, and the next night his sister was sick again, and I only had the band and a waitress with me at night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his sister in the hospital or anything while you were employed there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was. She was in the hospital--I think she was in the hospital, but when, I'm not sure. I'm not sure whether she was or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see her after the two nights you worked in the Vegas Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I saw her over at the Vegas Club two or three nights later, but I'm not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Pauline Hall?
Mr. CRAFARD. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet a woman named Pauline Hall?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you see her, would you say?
Mr. CRAFARD. All together I believe I saw her about four different times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe her physically?
Mr. CRAFARD. Fairly nice looking woman, I would say maybe in her mid-thirties--a little older, but a nice build, and what I saw of her, and when I talked to her, she had a fairly nice personality.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any woman at the Vegas Club who was employed there who was noticeably heavy, who was fat?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall of seeing one.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Carousel, did he have anybody employed, any woman employed at the Carousel Club who was noticeably fat?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a colored woman by the name of Alice who more or less took care of the coffee and the pizzas, was real heavy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you saw--do you know if Eva Grant worked at the Vegas any nights after the two nights that you worked there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about the man who runs the Colony Club, Abe Weinstein?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I--I don't. I believe I met the man on one occasion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you meet him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I met him at the Carousel Club. He was the one who got--Jack hired Little Lynn through him. I believe it was that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were Jack and Abe Weinstein friendly?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I wouldn't say so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to hire Little Lynn through Abe?
Mr. CRAFARD. He needed a girl, and Abe had one that he didn't need, and he knew Jack needed girls through the union setup, so he told Jack about her, brought her over and introduced her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Little Lynn been a stripper at Abe Weinstein's place?
Mr. CRAFARD. I understand she was an amateur.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack about the amateur nights that Weinstein had?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was some--I wouldn't say actually I discussed it with him. I should say he told me about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack tell you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact that he---the unions had sent out an order for the clubs to stop the so-called amateur night, and Ruby had done so, but the other clubs in town hadn't, and they had failed to comply with the union order, and nothing had happened about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Jack talk with you about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I showed up and went to work for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And, to your knowledge, did Jack do--what was Jack doing about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was doing his best to get the union to force them to stop. He had stopped.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was he doing that you know of?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was writing to some of the bigger, some of the higher officials in the union, and friends of his that he knew that had position or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you you ever make any telephone calls for him or write any letters or mail any letters in connection with that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I might have mailed some letters, I don't recall it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about telephone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever drive Jack's car?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. At the time I was working for Ruby all I had, the only license I had, was a restricted motorcycle operator's license.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than that at that time that you--you had driven with Jack, hadn't you, in his car, a number of times?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack keep a lot of things in his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. His trunk was always full of stuff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was? How about the inside of the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not so much in the back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did he keep in the trunk?
Mr. CRAFARD. Pictures of girls, these twist boards he was pushing, and cards for advertisements, and cards with the picture Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to see these things? These things in the trunk of the car.
Mr. CRAFARD. I straightened the trunk of his car up several times at his request.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep any keys in the car?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had some in a box in the back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of keys were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. From what I could tell more or less house keys, keys for doors.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they loose or in a key chain?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was a bunch of them on a keyring.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he kept them in a box of some sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a box did he keep them in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a cardboard box he had in the back of his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep anything else in that cardboard box?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was vitamin pills he was taking, and some of his diet stuff he kept in that box. He always had a bunch of soap in the car, bar soap.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he travel out of town or something that would cause him to need that stuff?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why would he have kept those things in the trunk of the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep clothes in the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. He sometimes would have clothes in the car. Maybe he would put clothes in the car that he would take to the cleaner and they would bein there 2 or 3 days before he would take them in the cleaners.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would they be in the trunk?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right in the trunk of the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in the glove compartment of the car, did you ever have any occasion to go into the glove compartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep the trunk of his car locked?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the times that you went into the trunk of the car, how did you get into the trunk?
Mr. CRAFARD. With the key.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you get the key?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would give it to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep this key loose in his pocket or did he have it on a key chain?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had it on a key chain.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did he keep on that key chain?
Mr. CRAFARD. The keys for the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had his apartment house key and the key to both clubs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this actually a chain or a ring or what?
Mr. CRAFARD. A keyring.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge did he keep---did he have any separate set of car keys that he kept on a separate ring or on a holder of any kind?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say at one time you went down to his car and got a gun out of the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep the gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. He kept that locked in the trunk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see any political literature of any sort in Jack's car or in the apartment or in the Carousel Club or any place else?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall seeing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see any radio scripts of any sort that Jack had?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have access to his office?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he maintain his desk?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was pretty much of a mess most of the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a desk that had drawers in it?
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Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about the drawers, did he keep things in the drawers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, they was always full of stuff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to go through any of these drawers?
Mr. CRAFARD. I went through, completely through the desk on different occasions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing any kinds of political literature of any sort in there, and by political I don't mean just partisan, but, oh, anything that might have to do with any kind of issue or political philosophy?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall it, of seeing any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever recall seeing anything from an organization called Lifeline or that was a piece of literature that was put out by an organization called Lifeline, or denominated Lifeline?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was a Lifeline book or magazine around once or twice. I never paid no attention to it; saw the book and that was all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack talk about any public events?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. About all we would discuss would be the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of person was Ruby as far as a person who talked about what he was doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. He didn't talk too much about things, things he was doing, other than the club itself. He talked about what had to be done about the club, but other than that he didn't talk too much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn't tell you what he was doing outside the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So as I understand it, atypical for Ruby, he appeared at the club before noon, wouldn't come back until late evening, he would spend 8 or 10 or what would presumably be waking hours away from the club each day.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk about what he was doing during that period of time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear anything, or do you have any idea of what he was doing during that period of time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever attempt to talk to him about what he was doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About that time? Did you ever hear anybody else try to talk to him about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack, or see Jack, or talk with him often enough so that you were able to form an opinion as to what Jack thought of his own sexual abilities?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I would have no opinion on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about other than the incidents that you mentioned earlier about his sexual conquests of his girl friends or something like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Griffin, how about his efforts to keep in shape physically, keep himself physically fit, and what not?
Mr. CRAFARD. I never saw any talk toward that effect. The only thing I knew for sure was he was dieting and trying to lose weight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is because he told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw him take these diet pills.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some sort of a schedule that he would take this on?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took it every morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did he take them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the way I understood, about the first thing he got up he would take this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he take it at the club or at home?
Mr. CRAFARD. At home; or sometimes at the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him take it?
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Mr. CRAFARD. He was trying to take it--I guess he figured about noontime he would take his medicine, this diet stuff, instead of eating.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did this come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was in powder form, you use it in tea or coffee. It prevents you from getting hungry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the 22d when Jack came back after the President had been shot, the first time, did he make any telephone calls to any of his employees, to anybody, to people, to tell them not to come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he had Andrew make calls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andy make all the calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. So far as I know; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack---how about the newspapers, was anything done about notifying the newspapers that the club was not going to be open?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know as it was Jack who done it--there was--he done so outside the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody come to the club during the afternoon of the 22d?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember of anybody coming to the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the strippers show up that day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember, I don't recall any coming down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Andy stay at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was there until about 15 or 20 minutes after Jack left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time or the second?
Mr. CRAFARD. The first time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which means that he would have left sometime before 4 o'clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you and Senator and Jack went out to take the picture of the Earl Warren sign, do you recall anything being in the car at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any newspapers in the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't remember any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you sit, in the front or back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I sat in the back seat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack know how to use the Polaroid camera?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn't take anything to run that Polaroid camera.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; but I don't believe he had ever----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it his camera?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was his camera. I don't believe he had ever took any patience to learn how to reload it. They can be quite complicated to reload if you don't know how to do it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have to reload after every shot?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much film did you have on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was four pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That you took?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was three pictures on it that I took. We thought there was four, and there was only three of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn't have to reload then, did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't reload.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you all talk about when you drove out there?
Mr. CRAFARD. They were talking about this Earl Warren sign and a hate ad that Ruby had saw in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack saying about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was something about the similarity of the numbers and the addresses of the two.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Senator saying about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall what Senator said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get some idea of what the purpose was, why Jack was concerned about this?
Mr. GRIFFIN No; I was completely in the dark about it. Something, I believe, was said about the sign of "Impeach Earl Warren," business being done by maybe the Birch Society or something like that.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack have to say about the Birch Society?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was either Jack or Senator said something about this sign, the "Impeach Earl Warren" sign being--having something to do with the "Birchites," or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were they going to do with this?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say anything to you about what he had been doing the rest of the day?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that was early in the morning when we took the pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you hadn't seen him for probably 12 hours?
Mr. CRAFARD. Something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before that, and in the 12 hours that he had been gone, did he indicate or he or Senator indicate at all what had gone on?
Mr. CRAFARD. Something had been said about Jack not having gotten any sleep.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate that he was doing this for anybody else, taking these pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he didn't give any indication about that fact.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Senator indicate what he had been doing that day?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your attitude after you went out there on this picture-taking enterprise?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it was just something he wanted done. It meant no more to me than taking a picture at the club, actually, except I was kind of curious as to what the devil it was all about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Something, they were talking about the "Impeach Earl Warren" sign. I made some suggestion about a box number, "Write for free information"; I made some suggestion about maybe writing for free information and finding out what I had come back, as I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nothing more was said about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the box number written down or anything?
Mr. CRAFARD. The box number was on the photograph, that is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a name on this, in addition to the box number, was there a name to anybody that you should write to?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was just "Impeach Earl Warren Committee" or something like that. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't remember?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead. You were going to say something else.
Mr. CRAFARD. I was going to say either that or it was an organization in Massachusetts somewhere or something that you had to write to. I know the sign had been printed in, I believe, Massachusetts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What conversation did you have about this sign after you drove back?
Mr. CRAFARD. After going back in, we had coffee, and they said something about going down to the post office and checking this box number to see if they could find out who had the box or something, and they let me off at the Carousel. That was the last I saw of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned in connection with that telephone call that you had had, the 3-hour telephone conversation with that girl----
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You thought there were some people in the background.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you indicated you thought they might have been teenagers or something.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there something particular about the voices and so forth that made you think it was teenagers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, some of the giggles I heard were kind of silly, like some silly giggle that some of the young teenage girls would do or make.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody telling this girl to get off the phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You also said something about the conversation was almost like you had, known this girl.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it was. It was just the way we talked--I mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she sound like she knew things about you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; but it was like people that has known each other for a little while trying to get to know each other when talking, talking about their hobbies and things they like and things they didn't like, and such as that. It wasn't like two people who had just started talking over the telephone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the voice one that you had ever recognized at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the voice meant nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think you mentioned that Little Lynn called on Friday night sometime.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you think she called?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe---I said I believe it was 9 or 9:30, I believed it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that she said when she called?
Mr. CRAFARD. She wanted to get ahold, of Jack, it was urgent or something to that effect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did she indicate she knew the club had been closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; she knew the club had been closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that time did she know how long it was going to be closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean that you just don't know or that you have the impression she didn't know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had the impression she didn't know any more about it than I knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your impression?
Mr. CRAFARD. That we would be closed, Friday and Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Friday and Saturday. So her--when was this decision to close Friday and Saturday, when was that made?
Mr. CRAFARD. Friday afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was made before Andy began to make the telephone calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that anybody who had been called by Andy would have known that the club was going to be closed Friday and, Saturday night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember closing the club on Thursday night?
Mr. CRAFARD. On Thursday night?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thursday night is the night before the assassination.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; we closed at the regular time, the usual time, 2:30 or 3 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was done with the money that night?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack had it with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Friday morning was there any money in the safe when you woke up, Friday morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was no money taken into the Carousel Club after Thursday night, was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you indicated before that Jack had the practice of depositing his money in the bank.
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know; yes. That is what I figure he was doing anyway, was depositing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any information he was doing that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I did, not know. definite, but that was what I figured he was doing, keep it with him, and then every 2 or 3 days he said he would go to the bank or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This North American Drilling Co., do you know anything about the people who manage that?
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Mr. CRAFARD. No; all I know about it is originally it was the old McClure Drilling Co. and the old Union Drilling Co. combined together to form the North American Drilling Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were those Michigan companies or were they people----
Mr. CRAFARD. Michigan companies.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We will continue tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.
TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED
The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin, Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to start out by stating for the record, for your purposes, also, Larry, that we are continuing this deposition under the same authority which it was commenced yesterday morning, and I know that there is no mistake on your part that the oath which you took before is still in effect.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What we propose to do today is to go through in some detail some of the papers which have come into our possession. The first thing I want to ask you to look at is a notebook, which is a blue cover spiral notebook entitled, "Penway Memo Notebook" and it has Commission Document No. 717, but for the record I will clarify this that this is not the same number as the numbers that we are using in the deposition. I will give it a deposition number in just a minute. I am going to mark this for identification on the front cover--I am going to mark this on the inside of the front cover at the bottom in pen, "Washington, D.C., April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5202, Deposition of C. L. Crafard," and I am going to sign it with my signature, Burt W. Griffin.
Mr. HUBERT. For the purpose of the record, count the number of pages and half pages. Perhaps it is a good idea to initial the bottom of each page with your initials.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. In addition to the front cover, what I am going to do is number the pages at the bottom, and I will put my initials on each. I will make it clear that I am numbering only the separate sheets of paper. I am not numbering each side of the paper. We can refer to these pages as the numbered side and the reverse side for purposes of discussion.
Mr. HUBERT. Why don't you have the record show that pages----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 10 is a blank. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper which has been torn off and there is nothing written on that page. Page 14 is approximately a third of a sheet of paper, the bottom two thirds having been torn off, and it does contain penciled writing on it. Page 15 is a full sheet. Page 16 is approximately a half sheet with penciled writing on it. Page 17 is a full sheet. There is a total of 18 pages including half sheets and third sheets of paper in the notebook, and there is a blue hard cardboard front cover and a buff or dirty brown back cover which is also hard cardboard. Do we have photostatic copies of it?
Do you want to put that in the record?
Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to get them numbered the same way. We can do that later.
(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5202 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Commission Exhibit 5202, and ask you, Larry, if you recognize that.
1
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this is a notebook I used to keep phone numbers when I was working for Mr. Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy that notebook yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I bought this myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how soon after you went to work for Jack Ruby did you buy that?
Mr. CRAFARD. About a week after I went to work for him. You look real close on the front you will see my name on the front of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you write that in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read what you see on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. C. L.--Larry Crafard, Carousel Club. Its got 1312 1/2 Commerce Street, Dallas, Tex. It's real vague on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is an impression that simply comes through as actually scratches on there and doesn't come through in any color?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn't come through in any color.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you bought this book, did Jack Ruby give you any instructions with respect to maintaining the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just use it to put phone numbers down in, addresses of people that called in wanting to talk, called in, put the phone number down so I'd know how he could get in touch with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the notations that appear in there follow any sequence either chronological or by topic or anything of that sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe they do, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take the time to look at it and see if you recognize any sequence in the entries?
Mr. CRAFARD. The first portion of the book on the first page is more or less numbers which was used quite frequently.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to page 1?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; page 1.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you want to look over on the back of page 1; the reverse side?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is also numbers that were used quite frequently.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look at page 2.
Mr. CRAFARD. Page 2, I believe, was an address on the top of page 2. It was an address that I wrote down for Mr. Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about the remaining entries on there. Were they numbers that were used frequently?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at the reverse side of page 2?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is only one number on there, on the reverse side of page 2 that we used very frequently. That was Little Lynn's phone number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part of page 3?
Mr. CRAFARD. From the numbers on there, as far as I know, there was only one of them that was used very frequently. It was Mickey Ryan. On the reverse side is just more or less notations that were taken down from phone calls. Then on page 4 is just numbers that were taken down from phone calls. The first number on page 4, Norma Bennett, that was that one girl I was trying to tell you about yesterday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She was the waitress?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she was the one I started saying about that Jack had tried to get to work as a stripper to get her to work for this friend of his, Ralph Paul.
Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is that during your testimony yesterday you remembered her name as Norma but you did not remember her last name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I did not even remember her first name, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you mentioned that her name was Norma.
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you now say that the person you were testifying about yesterday who tried to get work and who was ultimately placed at work by Ruby with Ralph Paul was Norma Bennett?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
2
Mr. HUBERT. And the entry on page--what is it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Page 4.
Mr. HUBERT. Refreshes your memory to that extent, right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. On the reverse side of page 4 is just notations. No. 5 is just notations, with some things that Jack had to do on that day. Then the reverse side of 5 is just notations, phone calls. No. 6 is some draws that I took on different days. The reverse side of No. 6 is just notations, mostly for phone calls that was taken. No. 7 is just notations with the exception of the top number, the top name, Joe Roskydall, who was a friend of mine while I was previously living in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, in the pages that you have gone through so far, have you noticed any handwriting in that book that is not your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you go through this, if you do recognize any handwriting that is not yours, would you point that out to us?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. On the reverse side of page 7 there is just notations from phone calls. The bottom half of that page written in ink isn't my handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize whose handwriting that is?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recognize Jack Ruby's handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recognize Andy Armstrong's handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I would recognize Andy's writing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that appear to be Andy Armstrong's handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at page 8?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is my writing on page 8. That is just phone numbers, addresses that was taken down that Jack Ruby give me to write down, addresses that he wanted to keep. On the reverse side of that is a couple of phone numbers. I don't recall what they were for. Page 9 I don't have any idea what that was for. I don't recall it all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting on page 9?
Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like my handwriting, yes. The reverse side of page 9 is blank. Page 10 is blank. A portion of a page, page 11, is blank.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11, incidentally, is a half sheet of paper. Do you recall in using this notebook whether you had occasion to rip out portions of the notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times I took a piece of paper and put a phone number on it for Jack. Page 12 is just a few notations for some things that I had to buy for myself. The reverse side of page 11 is----
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the reverse side of page 12?
Mr. CRAFARD. Page 12, yes; is just notations. Page 13 is a couple of notations.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 13 is in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This number in East Waco may not be mine. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to what appears to be 3902----
Mr. CRAFARD. East Waco.
Mr. GRIFFIN. East Waco, and that is written in pen?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I don't recall I ever wrote it down, and it doesn't look like my handwriting.
Mr. HUBERT. Page 10?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; page 13.
Mr. CRAFARD. Page 13. The reverse side of that page is my handwriting. It is just notations. Page 14 is some notations I took while I was trying to make arrangement to ship a dog to California. It is about a third of a page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read page 14 for us? It is a little difficult to read.
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not even sure what it is, myself. I can make out the name Frank Fisher underneath, but that is all. I believe the rest of it is something, Boeing Insurance it looks like.
Mr. HUBERT. How is it spelled?
Mr. CRAFORD. B-o-e-i-n-g. The reverse side of page 14 is just notations. 15
3
is just notations. I don't remember the bottom portion of that number wrote in dark blue ink.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It begins with "WE-7-3037"?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What page?
Mr. CRAFARD. Page 15.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then there are three more lines which appear to read on one line, "063" on the next line "Herman" printed, and the letters "Flore" and then those are crossed out and written above it in longhand is the word "flowers". And then directly under "Herman Flowers" is in longhand "from Wax-a-hatchy." Do I understand that you do not recognize that writing, for example, "from Wax-a-hatchy", as being in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. "Wax-a-hatchy", I believe, is my handwriting. The rest of it I don't recognize. On the reverse side of that is figuring. That is definitely not mine. Page 16 is just notations. That is about 2/3 of a page. The reverse side of that page is just notations, people calling in wanting reservations. Page 17 is just notations in my handwriting. The reverse side of page 17 is just notations. Page 18 is just notations in my handwriting. The reverse side of that is just notations.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With the exception of the pages in that book which you have indicated are blank, every page in the book is filled, which means that there are only a total of 18 pages in the book altogether. Do you recall from looking at this notebook whether when you bought the notebook it had more pages in it than appear to be there now?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it did have. I'm not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ripping out any of the pages?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall ripping out any full pages; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether in making the entries in that book you used pages in a consecutive fashion or whether you made entries on pages at random so that there would be many blank pages interspersed among pages that had writing on them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of it, I believe, was--from the first portion of the book, from the front to the back was pretty well in rotation. If I turn it over to the back and maybe flip over four or five pages and make a notation in it, as I recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean by that that you would leave some blank pages at the back?
Mr. CRAFARD. As I recall, there was blank pages left spaced in the back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So your testimony would be that the book as you see it now is not in the same condition as it was in when you left Dallas on the 23d of November?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else about that book which appears to be different from the way that you remember it when you left Dallas on the 23d?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can notice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any general questions, Mr. Hubert, that you want to ask about the book?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I would like to. What was the purpose of keeping that book?
Mr. CRAFARD. I used it, Jack would get calls he wanted to keep the number of and I'd write the number down in this book and later transfer to another book, and then I would use it if a phone call come in somebody wanting to talk to Jack I'd put the number down where he could get in touch with them at so I could give him the number to call.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you testified that the first three or four pages were made when you first bought the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And were in fact numbers that you knew or he told you would be frequently called, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the first two pages on both sides.
Mr. HUBERT. He gave you those numbers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
4
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were to keep the book in order to advise him currently, that is to say, daily, of the calls and messages and so forth that came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you, therefore, that that book, in order to serve the purpose that you stated, it was being kept for, would have been used by making the entries in sequence as they came up and not skipping around?
Mr. CRAFARD. I used the front of the book for numbers that Jack give me that he wanted to keep. Then I'd use the back of the book for people that called in for reservations at the club or he'd give me some numbers he wanted to use right then, but he wouldn't want to keep them, or something of this sort.
Mr. HUBERT. My point is that when you first started to use the book did you just put the first series of entries other than those numbers that were frequently called just at random on any page, or would you put it in the next available page?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would usually be on the next page. Sometimes I would skip maybe two or three pages.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any reason for doing that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'd want to have the pages there, a couple of blank pages there, like this one here which should have been torn out. I don't know why I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. What page are you referring to?
Mr. CRAFARD. The reverse side of page 12. It is a list of some sandwiches I went out and got for a couple of the girls that worked at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you suggesting to us that the book served several functions and that there were different portions of it for each function?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that the back of each page was used for the function of putting down reservations.
Mr. CRAFARD. I might use two or three pages right in a row for that, or I might take a page right out of the middle of the book.
Mr. HUBERT. And leave it in the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Usually I tore the page out. The pages I transferred over and when I got the book full I'd just throw the book away and get another book.
Mr. HUBERT. Which book are you talking of?
Mr. CRAFARD. These notebooks like this.
Mr. HUBERT. You had more than one?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had one other notebook similar to this, the same type of a notebook as this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did with that notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you testified that this was the one that you started off with.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There was another one that you bought later?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I used it quite frequently. I'd tear the pages out and write down the reservations a lot, most of the time. I had this book and when I started putting reservations down I thought I'd get another book and use it for that and then I'd have this one just for the phone numbers and I wouldn't mess up the reservations.
Mr. HUBERT. Then the other book, when it was used up, as it were, was thrown away?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have been through it. What we want to find out is if there is any way that one can tell by looking at the book about the date when any particular entry was made.
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that you skipped around arbitrarily?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might be 2 or 3 days before I'd put anything down in this book in a row, maybe. Personally, I couldn't say anything about the dates when I made the entries.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose that you hadn't used the book for a couple of days and then you found occasion to make an entry. Would you make that entry right following the last one you had made or would you make it at some other page?
5
Mr. CRAFARD. Several times I would flip over in the book to the next empty page, put down an entry, and later I'd take the first few pages that I had left out, left where I could and there would be a number Jack would want to keep and I'd write the number down. These numbers on the first couple of pages here, I think the first page is all numbers that I got the first day and then the others is numbers I added to it later.
Mr. HUBERT. Then are we to understand that there is no possibility of determining the sequence of events recorded in that book by referring to the order in which they appear in the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, an entry on one of the later pages might have been made prior to the one on the earlier page?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you testified, Larry, that you would sometimes flip the book over and make entries on the back of the pages, and as you have just done in front of us, you have turned the book over on its face to the back of the book. Do I understand your testimony to mean, then, that you worked, for some of your notations you worked backward?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From the back of the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But am I correct in understanding that the pages in the front of the book which have writing on the back side of the numbered page were not entries that were made in this fashion that we have just been describing but followed in the ordinary sequence that you would have made in working from the front of the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. The first two pages in the book, as I stated before, are numbers that he wanted to keep. I would fill the front of the page and then turn the page over and fill the reverse side of that same page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you go through there, would you leaf through those pages from one on, and tell us what the first page is that you recognize that wasn't made by working from the front of the book and filling in sequence the back of the page after you had filled the front?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would be page No. 4.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the back of page 4 has entries on it which might have been made because you were working from the back of the book forward?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, I believe so. I believe that is where I made those.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You also explained to Mr. Hubert that you would transfer some of the entries from that book into another notebook.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe the other notebook for us?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a Penway notebook, but it was a larger notebook. It was a memo pad, I believe is what it was. Was wide enough that it had a dividing line down the middle of the page, a red dividing line down the middle of the page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who purchased that notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long after you purchased this small Exhibit 5202 did you purchase the notebook that you have just been describing?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 3 or 4 days later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that book kept physically?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly on Jack's desk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave that notebook at the Carousel when you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any entries that were made in that notebook which were entered directly into that notebook without being placed in some other notebook first?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were a few in the last couple or few pages in the notebook.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries that were in this larger Penway notebook which you
6
have been describing, did they include all of the telephone numbers that are in this small Penway notebook which we have before us?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, not all of the numbers. There were numbers--the numbers that Jack wanted to keep and used quite frequently.
I believe all of the numbers on both sides of the first two pages were in that book along with some other numbers that he had given me that he wanted to keep that I wrote down there in the front.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the numbers that were placed in the large Penway notebook placed there at Jack's instructions or did you place some of them in there on your own initiative?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was numbers that Jack wanted to keep and he asked me to write down, he had asked me to get another book and write them down in it so he could have them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you bought this larger Penway notebook, had Jack been maintaining a notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. Very seldom that he used a notebook. He had a book full of numbers he very seldom used it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep that book of phone numbers?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had one on his desk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what kind of a book that was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a regular phone number and address book.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you would recognize that book if it were shown to you again?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you recall at this point if there were other entries in this small Penway notebook which you have identified as 5202 which you do not see in there now?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't say definitely that there was; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to refer now to the inside of the front cover. At the top of the inside of the front cover there is a number which appears to be "261-TA3-8101."
Is that the way you would read that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would read it 261-7A3-8101.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you tell us what the number is underneath that? Read it for the record.
Mr. CRAFARD. FE 5-3366.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a number under that, 612. Do you have any idea what connection that has?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see the name "Jeff," which is written under 612?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who that might refer to?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can't recall who it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the next number under Jeff?
Mr. CRAFARD. TA 1-1782.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That "T" is written the same as what you thought was a No. 7?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In 261----
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a second. Half the time I've got to figure it out, myself. Yes, that would be TA there, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it what you are indicating is that you have a tendency to make your "T's'' look like "7's."
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize this number TA 1-1782?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't sir.
7
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the top of page 1 there is some sort of a word written.
Mr. CRAFARD. The word "save."
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That I want to save that piece of paper, that particular sheet of paper, that I don't want to destroy it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that the notation "Vegas Club" with its number under it is the telephone number of the Vegas Club.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the next number is written "Jack's home" and under that "Whitehall 15601."
That is Jack Ruby's telephone number at home?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what this next notation "Buddy" Fort Worth----
Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy, Fort Worth, phone No. AX 3-0118 with the words "twist board" underneath it is the fact that this Buddy was a gentleman Jack called in reference to the twist board. I believe that is one of the gentlemen had something to do with making the twist boards in Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what Buddy's last name was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not positive. I believe it was Buddy Heard.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding as to Buddy Heard's connections to the twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that he had something to do with the production of the twist board in Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT What leads you to believe that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Because of the way it is set up here, he give me the number, he give me the twist boards. It was something to do with either the production or the selling of the twist boards.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there is a line, rather a vacant space under "twist boards."
I would just as soon that you not make entries in the book.
After that blank line there is some writing "Fort Worth" and some other things that follow.
Would you read that into the record, and then tell us what the significance of that is?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be the word "Fort Worth" phone No. "ED-51266" with a dash, and the words "give to Mike Shore only." That would be a number where Jack Ruby could be reached and he didn't want me to give the number to anyone but Mike Shore.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why he didn't want to give it to anyone but Mike Shore?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Mike Shore a person that Ruby dealt with regularly?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he talked to Mike Shore two or three times a week on the telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to meet Mike Shore?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not sure, sir. I believe he was in the club. I'm not positive.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to meet Buddy Heard?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall where Mike Shore lived?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you to state again what this entry in connection with Mike Shore pertained to?
Mr. CRAFARD. The number would be a number where Jack Ruby could be reached but he didn't want me to give the number to anyone but Mike Shore.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever call that number, ED-51266?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the number ED-51266 entered into this book the first day that you got the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was within the first 2 or 3 days, I'm positive of that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to call Jack Ruby at that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall. I don't remember making a call at that number.
8
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say anything to you which would indicate how often he visited the premises that that telephone number was located at?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a specific recollection of the conversation that you had with Jack which resulted in making this entry in the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was over the telephone, and he called in, and I believe I said something about Mike Shore had called wanting to talk to him, and he give me that number and told me to give it to Mike Shore only.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate whether he would be at that number only that day or for a short period of time, or whether he could be reached there every day, or what?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just a couple hours that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, under the name "Mike Shore only" there is another line which has no writing on it, and then there is an entry "St. Charles FL 7-0520." What is the significance of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the name St. Charles is the last name of a gentleman that Jack Ruby knew, but I don't recall ever meeting the gentleman or ever calling him to talk to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how that entry came to be put in the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, other than the fact that Jack give me the number. I believe there is reference to that same number further on in the book.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps when we get to it we can discuss it at that point.
Mr. CRAFARD. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over page one then. There are no further entries on page one, are there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And we will look at the reverse side of page one. Now, there is a name written here "Abe"----
Mr. CRAFARD. Klinman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How is that spelled?
Mr. CRAFARD. K-l-i-n-m-a-n.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Abe Klinman?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know what his position was or what he done for a living, but I believe I met him at the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a local Dallas citizen?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this somebody that Jack dealt with regularly?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Four or five different times that I know of Abe called the club, and several times that Jack called Abe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a telephone number under there, "RI 8----
Mr. CRAFARD. "4272."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Abe KIinman's?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the next line there is something written in there.
Mr. CRAFARD. The word "personal," the letters "UN," that is a telephone No. "UN-3-0400."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose number is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Earl Ruby's in Detroit, that is his home phone number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were at the Carousel, do you recall Jack's ever telephoning Earl Ruby or Earl Ruby ever telephoning Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack phoned Earl two or three different times. I don't recall Earl phoning Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall why it was Jack called Earl?
Mr. CRAFARD. In connection--the one time that I can really recall was in connection with the twist boards.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you went to work for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would have been about 2 or 3 weeks after I went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what do you recall about that telephone call?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the fact that he told Earl about the twist boards, and he told him he'd send him a couple of them and some of the advertisement he had on them, so he could promote them a little bit up Detroit.
9
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you overhear this telephone conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; there was something said about how they was doing there, how they was selling there in Dallas, and the fact that Jack thought that they would really go over pretty good up in Detroit, Chicago, and in that area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a number under "Earl Ruby, Detroit" is written under "personal UN-3400" and under "Earl Ruby, Detroit" there are some other notations. Would you indicate what those are?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be the No. 313 would be a code number, I believe, for Detroit. The phone No. "UN 3-5590" which would be the business number for Earl Ruby, and the words "Cobo Laundry" with the address "18135 Livernoise Avenue," Livernoise Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. May I point out for the record that Livernoise is written on two lines along the right-hand side of the page under the line which says "Cobo Laundry 18135" on it, and it is bracketed off from a notation, which is "Ed Pullman" and on the next line "TA-34484."
Do you recognize the name Ed Pullman?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was a gentleman there in Dallas, I believe, that Jack called several times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what his dealings were with Ed Pullman?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I do not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line under that telephone number, "UN-3" and then "UN-3" is scratched out and then on the following line there is a name written. What is that name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Leona Miller.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was she?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was a girl that called in connection with or in answer to an ad that Jack Ruby had in the paper for waitresses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So this entry, "Leona Miller" would not represent somebody whom Jack called regularly?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn't really go with the group of numbers then that we have been talking about which were sort of permanent numbers?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ed Pullman though. Would he fall in this category of people that Jack called regularly?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a telephone number under the name Leona Miller, and then there is a blank line, and there is something written on the next three lines. What is that on the next three lines?
Mr. CRAFARD. Clark Dotty, I believe it is, D-o-t-t-y.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephone number.
Mr. CRAFARD. WH 1-1227.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Clark Dotty?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't; sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the reverse side of page one does it not?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Just before you finish that, let me ask you this. I notice that there is apparently the name Clark Dotty written out at the bottom of page one or the reverse of page one, and when it is written the first time the word "Clark" seems to be written and scratched through and then Clark Dotty is written again under its number.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Are both of those entries in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you wrote it twice?
Mr. CRAFARD. About the only reason I can see here would be the fact that when I wrote it the first time instead of the name Clark I put some other name down. Then I wrote over it and I couldn't make it out so I wrote the name Clark Dotty underneath it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you recognize the name Mary Ray?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet Ed Pullman's wife?
10
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge, no, sir. Not that I can recall I should say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the top of page 2 there is an entry. Mar-Din Co. underneath that the name Henry Denture. The address 404 South Well, Chicago 7, Ill. Phone number HA 7-3172. Do you remember how that entry came to be made in the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was the number, if I can recall right, Clark called in connection with the Earl Products Co. There is a company that I believe Jack said this Mr. Denture and himself had been partners in one time in Chicago. The company had went broke but they still had the papers and everything on the company. It had never been dissolved. He was using this as a name to sell the twist boards under, the Earl Products Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than contacting Henry Denture at the Mar-Din Co., do you know of any other dealings that Jack had with Mar-Din?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; that I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your understanding that Henry Denture was involved with Jack in the sale of twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you have that understanding?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack give me that understanding when he give me this Earl Products Co. number, this number so I could call the Earl Products Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the Earl Products Co. was at the same address and number as this Mar-Din Co.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; from what I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask on this?
Mr. HUBERT. I understood you to say that Jack wanted to communicate to the Earl Products Co. the fact that Mar-Din and Henry Denture would be associated with the twist beards?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Referring to page 2 of Exhibit 5202, I take it that the first six entries starting with Mar-Din Co. and ending with Earl Products all relate to the same thing, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And were all entered about the same time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not clear just what the significance is and I wish you'd state it again.
Mr. CRAFARD. This Henry Denture, he called, he said it had been checked with him in this Earl Products before in Chicago and he was using the Earl Products Co. as a name to sell the twist boards under.
Mr. HUBERT. Henry Denture was?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack Ruby was, and he called Henry Denture in Chicago about the twist boards.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you overhear the call?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was there when he made the call. I don't recall just exactly what was said but it was something about the twist boards.
Mr. HUBERT. And he called a man called Henry Denture?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he wanted you to make this entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was just a number he wanted to keep.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, could the name Henry Denture be a mistake? Could the last name really have been Kenter?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is quite similar and I could have made a mistake and put a "D" down in place of a "K."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after the entry Earl Products Co., there is a line with nothing written on it, and then there are two names. What are those two names?
Mr. CRAFARD. Doris Land and Peggy Taylor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall either of those two girls?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were girls who called in answer to the ad that Jack was running in the paper.
11
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephone number TA 4-6895?
Mr. CRAFARD. Would be the number where they could be reached at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now under that there is the name Teddy Waiters, and Teddy is written in longhand and Walters is printed. Are both of those your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall who Teddy Waiters was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a telephone number under that. What is that telephone number?
Mr. CRAFARD. FE 7-4644.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an entry under that which looks like A. F. McKnight, with a telephone number LA 6-2251. Do you remember anything about A.F. McKnight?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack called, had a conversation with him a couple of times on the telephone. Other than that I can't recall anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what those conversations were about?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 2 on the front side.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn the page over and ask you to look at the back of page 2. Now there is a number WH 2- 2371. Do you recognize that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; it doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is written in pen and then there is a line with nothing written on it, and then there is the entry Riverside 7-2362 Earl Products Co. How did that entry come to be put down?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was a local number Jack had me put down for the Earl Products Co. If I recall right that was the pay telephone of the Carousel Club, and anybody, he said if anybody called the Carousel Club asking about this Earl Products Co. or anything about that, to give them this number to call.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack didn't want the Earl Products number to be associated with his personal phone at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now was there a personal phone at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a business phone, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A business phone. What was the number on that business phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember it, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the same number as on his home phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; can I go back a little bit on this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. Going back to page 2 starting with the Mar-Din Co., the number below that I believe, the HA 7-3172 if I remember right it seems to me that this number and the address were different. It seems to me this number was either a Fort Worth or a Dallas number, and this address up here was just an address where I sent something, or something of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. CRAFARD. I was thinking about that and it kind of didn't----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't think the HA number is a Chicago number?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I believe that is either a Dallas or a Fort Worth number after I think about it a little bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are clear that there were two different telephones at the Carousel Club. One was a pay phone and the other was a business phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that the Riverside number was the business phone number?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an entry, there is rather a line with nothing written on it after the entry Earl Products Co., and then there is a name and address and some numbers written; what is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Bill DeMar, Wichita, Kans. The telephone number JA 4-4241. The telephone number JA 8-6116. Bill DeMar was a comedian that Ruby had hired to come down to the club, and these are the numbers where he could be
12
reached. I believe one was a motel number and one was a business number or something of that sort. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries in connection with Earl Products Co. and Bill DeMar are all written in pencil.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I want to ask you if these would have followed in sequence or whether you were making these entries in there because they were entries which were to be kept or sort of on a permanent basis?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe they follow sequence, I don't believe the number of Bill DeMar, numbers would be anything we would keep on a permanent basis as far as I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you also don't think that Bill DeMar called shortly after or that number was given to you shortly after the Earl Products number was given to you so that the two of them were made at roughly the same time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that, sir. They could have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you about Bill DeMar. Did Jack have any business with Bill DeMar other than to hire him as an entertainer?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entries in connection with Bill DeMar, there is a line on which nothing is written, and then there is an entry Little Lynn OP 34, and then 817--JE 4-8525. Do you remember making that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember approximately when that entry was made?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I couldn't say for dates. It was made about I believe 2 or 3 days before Jack hired Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did that call happen to come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember how it come about, but he give me the number so he could have it to call Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack gave you that number or did you answer the telephone and get that number from a long distance operator?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack gave me the number. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after that there are some entries. Some figures written on the next two lines. Can you tell us what those numbers are?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't know what they mean. There is the number 875, and number 1750. It seems like a hyphen behind the numbers with a dash, and a three behind that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven't any recollection what that might relate to?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the reverse side of page 2.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over to page 3. What is the name written at the top?
Mr. CRAFARD. The top line is "See Paul Lubeachick."
Mr. GRIFFIN. How does he spell that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is L-u-b-e-a-c-h-i-c-k, I believe. On the next line is "Here at 9:30." That would be that Paul Lubeachick was going to be at the club at 9:30 and wouldn't be able to be there too long and he wanted to see Jack and I was to tell Jack when he called on the phone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The next entry is also an entry for Bill DeMar.
Mr. CRAFARD. It is Bill DeMar, Evansville, 824 West Idewild Drive, HA 3-7245. and I believe that was Bill DeMar's home address; I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is an entry in pen which follows that. What is that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ruth Shay, Inwood Road, FL 2-5494.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Ruth Shay?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was a girl called in connection with the ad that Jack ran in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she ever hired?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a line and the name Mickey Ryan with a telephone number.
Mr. CRAFARD. Mickey Ryan, DA 4-4378.
13
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a number that was put in there for permanent reference.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was his home number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you see Mickey Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have saw Mickey Ryan probably about eight or nine times while I was working for Jack. Excuse me please.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to me that number should have been on the first couple of pages that wrote down, but it seems like I transferred the number to the front of the book after I wrote the number down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Mickey Ryan number?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan's name and number are something that Jack would keep on a permanent basis?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey come at any particular time of the day or night?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; he'd come in sometimes in the afternoon for a little while and then maybe he would be in in the evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And would he visit with other people in the club besides Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Sometimes Jack wouldn't even be at the club. He'd come in and talk to Andrew and I, and just visit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. These eight or nine times that you saw him, were they spread out over the entire period that you worked there or was it just in one particular brief period that he came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Over the entire period of time I was working for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the first time that you met Mickey Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not clear. No, sir; I don't recall exactly when I met him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about the first time that you do recall meeting Mickey Ryan and what happened.
Mr. CRAFARD. The first time I really remember talking to Mickey at the club I believe he came in one afternoon and I was in the club. There was a letter that had come for Mickey Ryan to the club and I gave that to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody else receive mail at the club besides Mickey Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was two or three people that had worked at the club previously that had mail sent to the club after they left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey have anything to do with the sale of twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Mickey's relationship with Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know they were just friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any view about Mickey as to whether he was a homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mickey seemed to be pretty decent guy. A far as I could figure there was nothing of that sort there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn how Mickey met Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey have any kind of business dealings with Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that Jack had a bookkeeper.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what his name was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But that wasn't Mickey Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a friend of Mickey Ryan's?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know, sir. It might have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what Mickey Ryan's occupation was?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I knew, sir, he was a bartender.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a club called there a couple of days, a couple of different times asking for Mickey. I believe it was at the Gun Club where he went to
14
work. When I first met him he was unemployed and then he went to work afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. It was your impression that he went to work as a bartender at the Gun Club.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You formed that impression from what he told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. When they called they called asking for him and they said they wanted him in reference to a job, and he said he was trying to get a job as a bartender.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his having told you that he had gotten the job?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that is the reason I formed the impression that he had been a bartender.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you so.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to go back to that top entry on page 3 "see Paul"----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me finish up on Mickey Ryan a second. Do you know what kind of a club this Gun Club was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I had never been there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it just a bar or was it a place where people went to shoot skeet or trap or something like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know, sir. I believe the call came in as the Hunt Club or something like that or Hunter's Club or something of that sort, the call came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you are not sure that the name of the club is the Gun Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have any idea where that club is located?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is near Dallas somewhere but that is all I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if it is in downtown Dallas or in the outskirts or what?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was on the outskirts of Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have been a country club, a golf club of some sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, I am finished with that.
Mr. HUBERT. Going to the top of page 3 that entry "See Paul Lubeachick here at 9:30." I think you added something to that entry to the effect that that entry meant that that man was going to be there at 9:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. The part you added was that he couldn't stay very long.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is the impression that I had when I talked to him, sir. He said something about----
Mr. HUBERT. You have a distinct recollection therefore of that particular episode and that man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Of the call coming in; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a call?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. The man gave you that name and said that he would be there at 9:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But that he could not wait very long?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something like the fact that he would be there at 9:30 and he wanted to see Jack, that he couldn't stay there for any length of time.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he came in at 9:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall, sir. After the club opened I was too busy to notice who came in.
Mr. HUBERT. With an entry of that nature isn't it fair to say that you would have conveyed that information in its totality to Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would have told him not merely that the man was coming in at 9:30 but that he had said he couldn't wait very long.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
15
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall having done so?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not positive, sir. I don't recall it clearly.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever at any time after that see a man named Paul Lubeachick?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember, sir. I don't believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that you told Jack he couldn't wait very long?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember Jack's reaction to that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe Mickey Ryan and a telephone number under there is the last entry on page 3.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over page 3 to the back. There is the name Stanley Kaufman and a telephone number after that. Did you ever meet Stanley Kaufman?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall ever meeting him, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he is?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now was Stanley Kaufman a name that Jack would have wanted kept on a permanent basis?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line with nothing written on it following the entry in connection with Stanley Kaufman, and there is a notation "Wednesday pay bill at phone company."
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that something you were to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Something I was to remind Jack to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would we be able to date anything in this book from that entry of Wednesday pay phone bill, for example, if we knew when Jack paid his telephone bill in October or November? Would we be able to draw any conclusions as to all of the entries in the book which appear before that entry "Wed pay bill at phone company?"
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line after the entry in connection with the phone company, and then there is something written. What is written?
Mr. CRAFARD. Riky Kasada.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that somebody's name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your spelling of a name that was spoken to you or did somebody actually dictate that spelling to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is my own spelling.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is simply what we would call your interpretation of the phonetics?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Riky Kasada?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After that there is another name.
Mr. CRAFARD. Scotty Milles, M-i-l-l-e-s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Scotty Milles, M-i-l-l-e-s?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir, M-i-l-l-e-s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was he?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a she. She was the woman who called me in reference to Mickey on this job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, she called to inquire about Mickey Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember the conversation you had with her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she indicate where she was calling from?
Mr. CRAFARD. She said something about a club or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it this Hunt Club or Gun Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any connection between Riky Kasada and Scotty Milles?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Under the entry reference on Mickey, there is a line and then there are some figures written there. Do you make anything out of those numbers?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would those be expenses that you had or money that you took out of the cash register?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think if you sat here awhile and thought about it you might be able to make something out of this?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so. It might be some bills that I had paid or something. Maybe some champagne I had bought or something like that that I had put down, the money I had been given and what I had spent.
Mr. HUBERT. You are clear though that those figures refer to money?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so by the way they are wrote down.
Mr. HUBERT. Is the significant point about the way they are written down that indicates that they refer to money.
Mr. CRAFARD. The number 1420 is wrote down like you write down $14.20.
Mr. HUBERT. By doing what to the 1420?
Mr. CRAFARD. Putting the dot behind your 14.
Mr. HUBERT. You put the decimal?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the way you write money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you would say that those figures being in your handwriting would be the way you would write figures concerning money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back side of page 3. I want to turn to page 4 then. What is written at the top of page 4?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Norma Bennett with the number CA 4-2234.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Bennett or Barnett?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Bennett. As I have wrote it it appears to be Barnett.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you think the name is Bennett.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now who is Norma Bennett?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is a young lady that called in connection with the ad that Jack had ran, subsequently came in and met Jack. Jack tried to talk her to go to work as a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she ever work for him in any capacity?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir; not around the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first see her?
Mr. CRAFARD. When she came into the club the day after she phoned. I believe that was about 4 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you talk to her at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your conversation with her?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just getting acquainted with her more than anything. She seemed like a pretty nice girl. We got along pretty well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did she remain in the club that day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was around the club most of the afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Jack there during that period?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack came in after she arrived.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Jack stay while she was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he spent a couple of hours around the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation Jack had?
17
Mr. CRAFARD. Not particularly, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the entry on page 4 concerning Norma Barnett, is there any doubt in your mind that, as it is written, it is Barnett and not Bennett?
Mr. CRAFARD. No doubt in my mind it is spelled Barnett, B-a-r-n-e-t-t.
Mr. HUBERT. You got that over the phone when she called; is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that her name was not really Barnett but Bennett?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that I already spoke of her as Norma Bennett I believe when I spoke with her. I recall that.
Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony was that you subsequently met her.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you then learn that her name was Bennett instead of Barnett?
Mr. CRAFARD. I very seldom used her last name after I met her. I believe when she introduced herself it sounded to me like she said Norma Bennett when she introduced herself to Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Obviously when you heard it over the phone you thought it was Barnett because that is the way you put it down.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But thereafter you think you learned from her that it was Bennett?
Mr. CRAFARD. I might have misspelled it to myself or something. I referred to her as Bennett all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. To whom did you refer as Bennett?
Mr. CRAFARD. Whenever I used her name to Jack a couple of times when we was talking about her.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever use the name Bennett to her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall ever using her last name to her, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that you really don't know what her last name is?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the next word after CA 4-2234?
Mr. CRAFARD. Waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. And then under that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Judy Armstrong.
Mr. HUBERT. What is under that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Congress, the phone number Congress 9-2576, Carlton, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think those four lines beginning with waitress and ending up with Carlton, Tex., all deal with the same transaction?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the word "waitress" doesn't deal with the direction above it but the transaction below it?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that, a call from somebody who wanted to be a waitress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet that person?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall meeting her.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Jack called her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know if he called her or not, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; let's pass to the next entry under that.
Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me 1 minute, please. It seems to me this Judy Armstrong was a number that one night one of the girls was sick and one of the other girls that had the night off and we needed another girl and this is a girl that had worked for Jack, I believe, and we tried to call her. I am not positive of that. Or we tried to call her to go to work or something.
Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is that insofar as the entry concerning Judy Armstrong which begins with the word waitress and ends with Carlton, Tex.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
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Mr. HUBERT. You first testified that you thought that this was a person answering an ad?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you think that actually you all sought to call her to work in place of someone who was ill?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the way it worked out she had called in connection with the ad and we had her number down on the list of girls to call and one night we needed a girl and we tried to call her and couldn't get in touch with her. Tried to call her to come to work and couldn't get in touch with her.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the entry on page 4 was actually made as you said it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When she called applying for a job but you have an independent recollection other than the entry that on some occasion you called her to just see if she could substitute?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you reached her.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall reaching her, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have never met her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; what about Burt Nelson?
Mr. CRAFARD. Burt Nelson, Chez Femme, the phone number EM 3-6324, and I don't know who Mr. Nelson is.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that Chez Femme?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is a place he worked, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a place is it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall, sir. I believe it was a clothing store of some sort.
Mr. HUBERT. A what?
Mr. CRAFARD. A clothing store of some sort, sir, I believe, I am not positive.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the entry under that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy, hyphenized, Floyd Turner, phone number LY 2-5903, Tyler, Tex. I don't remember ever meeting him. I believe Jack referred to him as Budd Turner though.
Mr. HUBERT. Would that be a call that had come in or a call given to you by Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure, sir. I believe it was one given to me by Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about that man?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Never met him.
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear his name spoken other than in this connection?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's turn over to the next page then which is page 5. Would you read it because I can't read your handwriting.
Mr. CRAFARD. Page 5 or do you want to read the reverse of page 4, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to read the reverse of page 4 I beg your pardon.
Mr. CRAFARD. It starts with line Linda phone number RI 2-0720, and the initials R. W. Bowsher.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that those three entries relate to the same thing.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe they do, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then tell us what they do mean independently.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the line DA and the line number is a number where we could get ahold of this girl Linda, but the R. W. Bowsher I have no recollection of what it would be.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it seem to be written with a different pen or pencil?
Mr. CRAFARD. The pencil that was used for the word Linda and the phone number seems to have been sharper than the one used for R. W. Bowsher.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your custom to separate independent episodes by leaving a blank line between them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have done so most of the time; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In this case you don't seem to have done so.
Mr. CRAFARD. Sometimes I would put them right under something else.
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Mr. HUBERT. Anyway your recollection now is that you think the word Linda and the telephone number under it is independent from the line that immediately follows which reads "R. W. Bowsher?"
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Linda?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know, sir; I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You said she was a----
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was more like a girl that called in answer to the ad we ran in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. What about R. W. Bowsher, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall anything about him.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's pass to the next entry which is separated from R. W. Bowsher by a blank line.
Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy Heard, Loflin Hotel, phone number KE 2-4672.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't that 71?
Mr. CRAFARD. 71, yes sir. And underneath that the numbers 5336827, and 100 North Florence---and the word "office." I believe that would be the fact that Buddy Heard was staying at the Loflin Hotel. The KE number would be a number where we could reach Buddy Heard. The next number down would be probably a number for the office. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And the telephone for that office.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe would be the 533-6827. I am not positive.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that those five lines beginning Buddy Heard and ending 100 North Florence--office are all related to the same transaction?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think they are not related to the line which immediately follows starting "Burt called?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I believe that is something entirely different.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Buddy Heard?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. I believe I have met him. I am not sure. But "Burt called" underneath that----
Mr. HUBERT. Let's not leave Buddy Heard yet. Does the name mean anything to you at all? You might have some recollection in your mind?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have heard the name mentioned several times but I don't know what Heard done for a living. I believe he had something in connection with the actor's union. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't think you have ever met him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Go to the next entry, then.
Mr. CRAFARD. Burt will call later. You have his home number. I believe that would be all related.
Mr. HUBERT. Those four lines would be related to one another?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What would be the significance of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that this Burt called and wouldn't leave the number but said that Jack had his home number.
Mr. HUBERT. "You" there refers to Jack, right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this was a note that was being written so that when Jack read it if he weren't there he would know it was written to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Burt?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall who he was.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. That finishes the back of page 4. Mr. Griffin, do you want to star with page 5?
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you got through the entries "Burt called." For my own clarification, did we identify where the Loflin Hotel is, which city that is in?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; we didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where that is?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. I believe that it is Dallas. I am not positive.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Are all of the entries from Buddy Heard to 100 North Florence--office----
Mr. HUBERT. That has been covered.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then on the top of page 5 there is a series of notations. Would you read those off.
Mr. CRAFARD. "Get ad off to Hyman." In other words things to tell Jack, to remind Jack he had to do was to get an ad off to Hyman, pay a phone bill and go to the bank and then appointment call to Earl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what ad there was to get off to Hyman?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the ad in connection with the twistboards. I am not positive. We were sending an ad to this Hyman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where the ad was to be placed?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. He was to mail it, I believe. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the meaning of "appointment call to Earl"? What is an appointment call?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had called and asked the operator to place the call at a certain time and to call him back when the connection had been made.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The mailing of the ad to Hyman and the paying of the phone bill and the going to the bank and the appointment call to Earl, did these all occur on the same day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line drawn under appointment call to Earl. It separates the page in half roughly.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that line.
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be that this top portion of the page would have been 1 day, things I had wrote down for 1 day. The bottom of it would have been another day or on 2 or 3 days later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is an entry there "get post office box."
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that in connection with?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was going to get another post office box to use for this twistboard setup.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he already have one post office box before that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was receiving the mail through the Carousel Club and his home address.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a number under there RI 1-0345. Do you know whose phone number that is?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a line with nothing written on it after that, and there is another entry. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. "Pauline called" at I believe 4 and will be in about 7 or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was Pauline?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was more or less I'd say the assistant manager over at the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was Pauline Hall.
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 5; is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask on those entries on page 5?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the appointment call with Earl?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Those entries at the top of page 5 the four of them, the things that you were to do or remind him of, were they simply told to you by Jack over the phone or in person and then you were to remind him the next day or later?
Mr. CRAFARD. Things that Jack said and I was to remind him the next day. I believe on this phone call he had tried to place it one day and he couldn't get the phone call through so he arranged for an appointment call the next afternoon I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do it yourself?
21
Mr. CRAFARD. If Jack did?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember him doing it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can remember him placing, trying to place a call to Earl one day and he couldn't make it and he arranged a call for the next day. But I don't know if this was the incident or not.
Mr. HUBERT. What this simply means is that you were to remind him of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That was then your function with respect to it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall Jack ever mentioning or did you ever hear anything about the Triangle Manufacturing Co.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall it, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if Jack had any dealings with any people in Wisconsin?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over to the back of page 5. There is a name written at the top of the back of page 5. What name is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jerry Lindsay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Jerry Lindsay?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called in wanting a job. He had been a floorman in another club and he called in asking about a job at the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is a floorman?
Mr. CRAFARD. A polite way of saying bouncer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack employ a bouncer while you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Jack about why he did or did not, why he didn't have a bouncer?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any need for a bouncer?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not the Carousel Club. This would have been in connection with the Vegas Club, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a tougher crowd at the Vegas Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. They had sometimes some pretty tough crowds out there on weekend nights. People would get drunk and start giving them trouble. The floorman would talk to the man trying to get him to quiet and if he wouldn't be quiet he would escort him to the door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Vegas Club didn't have stripteasers did it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yet there was a tougher crowd there at the Vegas.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. The type of crowd that frequented the clubs, the Carousel Club and the other burlesque shows in town was the businessmen more than anything, whereas the Vegas Club's clientele was more or less common laborers, working people. It was a dance club where you could go in and buy beer, soft drinks and you could dance, and the clientele there was of the rougher nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I was a little bit confused in your testimony yesterday.
Was it your impression that Jack was doing better financially off the Vegas than off the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. Definitely; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say that with positiveness? What makes you so positive about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two or three different times Jack said if it wasn't for the Vegas Club he would have had to close the Carousel down a long time before. The Vegas Club was making enough money to keep the Carousel and the Vegas both running.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think he kept the Carousel open?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know, sir. There had been a stretch where I guess he had had pretty bad luck with the Carousel, hadn't been making much money and he used the money he made from the Vegas Club to keep the Carousel going at that time from what I understood.
22
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the time you were working there was the Carousel carrying its own?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes, sir; to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you felt that in the month or 2 months that you worked for Jack, both the Vegas and the Carousel were self-sustaining operations?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After this entry about Jerry Lindsay, there is a telephone number TA 7-2553 floorman, and I understand from your testimony those all should be read together. Then there is a line with nothing written on it and there is a notation which I wonder if you can decipher.
Mr. CRAFARD. "Talked to Leo--Mrs. Grant."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall the significance of that, who Leo was?
Mr. CRAFARD. He worked at, I believe he was handling the floor at the Carousel most of the time. I don't recall what his last name was. I believe this was the night that I stayed at the Vegas Club for Jack the first night. I believe Leo called and I talked to him and then I talked to Mrs. Grant right away. Mrs. Grant called right away after that and I talked to her. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your impression that the call from Jerry Lindsay was also taken at the Vegas Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the call from Jerry Lindsay was taken at the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number under that, EM----
Mr. CRAFARD. That is FL 1-9303.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; do you know what---
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall what it would be in connection with, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or the next telephone number.
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 5. Now let me turn over to page 6.
There are some entries on there, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, and then from Sunday through Monday you have entries of amounts of money after that. Did you make those entries on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what do those refer to?
Mr. CRAFARD. It refers to draws that I made from the till.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what week that would have been that you made that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. No sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries for Thursday, Friday, and Saturday are not complete. Do you have any recollection on the basis of that that it was the last week that you worked there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so, sir. I don't believe it was. I might have been but I don't believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Larry, I notice that nowhere else in this little book are there entries of that nature. Can we assume that you only kept such records for 1 week or rather 4 days of 1 week?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this was because of the fact that Jack had agreed to start paying me a salary and he wanted me to keep track of my draw slips, draws on that, and then it appears about Wednesday or Thursday he told me to quit keeping it, didn't have to keep track of it any more or something.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first went there it was just on a draw basis.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you talked to him about a salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you that he would think it over.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And your testimony now is that after you all had talked about a salary he wanted to know what your draw was so that he could adjust the salary accordingly, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that these entries would have been made about the time that you talked about a salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. It would have been about 3 weeks before the assassination of President Kennedy I believe, sir.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. That you talked about----
Mr. CRAFARD. About the salary; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It is fair to say then that these entries relate to that week, to wit, about 3 weeks before the assassination.
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be 2 or 3 weeks before the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. You said that the significance of the fact that there are no entries for Thursday, Friday and Saturday is that Jack told you that it was no longer necessary to keep a record of your draws?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would believe so; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did that mean with respect to whether you were going on salary or not?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember what it had to do with that, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go on a salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. I never was paid any salary.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember he told you to stop keeping a record.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would be the reason that I quit. I don't actually recall him saying so but I believe that would be the reason.
Mr. HUBERT. Doesn't that refresh your memory?
Mr. CRAFARD. No sir; it doesn't.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't let me finish but I will repeat it. Doesn't that refresh your memory with respect to the fact that you all had agreed upon a salary then? Could it have any other significance?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had said something; he said I would draw a salary but I don't believe there was ever any exact figure agreed upon. I don't remember of any.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Wednesday, although you had not agreed on what the amount of the salary would be, your recollection is that he told you it was no longer necessary to keep this because there would be a salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. But there never was any salary paid at all.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you normally make these entries?
Mr. CRAFARD. Whenever I'd make a draw. Usually in the evening I made most of my draws.
Mr. HUBERT. And you would put it in the book immediately.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; usually.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that sometimes you would put it in there the next day.
Mr. CRAFARD. I might sometimes the next day; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact also that at the beginning of that week you wrote down all of these days and then the entries were made as you drew for each day?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now an entry for Thursday would have been made on Friday, wouldn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would have been made on Thursday.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you just told me that there was at least the possibility.
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a possibility I would have waited until Friday but I believe I would have made the entries on the day I made the draw.
Mr. HUBERT. I am suggesting to you that these sets of entries have to do with the week in which President Kennedy was killed, and that is that you had agreed upon a salary on the Wednesday.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall exactly what week they had to do with, sir; really. It could have been that week.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had agreed on salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But not the amount of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you never were paid any?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. For instance, the Saturday before you left Dallas you were not paid a salary.
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Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had a salary been agreed upon prior to that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall that, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. If it had it would have been paid wouldn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it would have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Doesn't that pinpoint then this series of days as being the week during which President Kennedy was killed on a Friday.
Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entry "Saturday" there is a blank line and then there is an entry "call home as soon as possible." How did that come to be written?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember, sir. It could have been somebody called in to have one of the girls call home or something like this. A couple of the girls had been married and had children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a note left for Jack Ruby or for yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe it was for Jack Ruby. I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you carry this notebook on your person at all times?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I was in the club it was in my pocket all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you were not in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time it would be in my pocket, anyway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a telephone number written after the previous entry, and it is RI 1-4643. Do you remember that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't remember it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 6.
Now let me turn over page 6 to the back, and there is something written on there, Schroll. Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is the name Dick Gifford, KTVT, Fort Worth, TA 3-7110. Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember how this Schroll name happened to be written down?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or who that refers to?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Dick Gifford?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was I believe an MC over at the KTVT.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember how that entry happened to be put in there?
Nr. CRAFARD. It was something in connection with the twist board setup. I called him in connection with--Jack give me the number to call and ask for this Dick Gifford.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you say to Dick Gifford?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something on the price of advertisement on TV, for a TV advertisement or something of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what makes you think that it was the price of a TV ad?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly this next line hasn't got anything on it. It has been erased. I believe I erased it, 150 for 1 minute, and I recall this 150 for 1 minute was in connection with a TV advertisement.
I don't remember whether I made the call or whether Jack made the call or what.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the line 150 for 1 minute, which is partially erased, there is an entry "Names of record shops where it can be bought."
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that refer to?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure of what it does refer to, sir. Probably a record of some kind that Jack was wanting to get ahold of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any records that Jack was interested in buying?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was buying records and bought a lot of records he gave away as prizes in the club.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of records were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Such records as, Belly Dancer and Striptease for Your Husband, Rusty Warren records and such as that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So they were what you might call party records?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; party records.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack show an interest in any other kind of records besides party records.
Mr. CRAFARD. Not for the club that I ever saw.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about for other purposes?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember him ever saying anything about records for anything else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back part of page 6.
We will turn over to the front part of page 7. There are some entries there. Are those entries all in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first entry is Joe Roskydall.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us again who Joe Roskydall is?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Roskydall is the last name of a friend of mine. This Joe was a number in the phone number I called when I was trying to locate this friend of mine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your friend's first name.
Mr. CRAFARD. Robert Roskydall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Robert living with Joe Roskydall?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I figured they might be related. He had been around Dallas for quite a while and I thought they might be related in some way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is something written on the next line after Joe Roskydall. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like Benning, EV 1-6260.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that have any connection with Joe Roskydall?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what Benning was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is written on the next line?
Mr. CRAFARD. W.J. Groveland, DA 1-5178.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a person?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how that entry came to be?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another entry there.
Mr. CRAFARD. Dick Lenard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; who is Dick Lenard?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall that, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another one.
Mr. CRAFARD. KTVT TA 3-7110.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the same number that you had for Dick Gifford.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that indicate that there was a second call made?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that this KTVT here was wrote down before the other one was. It was later he give me the name Dick Gifford for the same number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entry about KTVT there is a line with nothing written on it and there is some more writing.
Mr. CRAFARD. E. J. Evans.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the next?
Mr. CRAFARD. Stevens Park Beauty Salon, 2140 Forth Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that entry?
26
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had me calling the beauty salons trying to get them to promote this twist board for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you call more than one beauty salon?
Mr. CRAFARD. I called several of them around Dallas. I don't remember calling any in Fort Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do when you would call these beauty salons.
Mr. CRAFARD. Talk to them about the twist boards.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would a typical conversation go.
Mr. CRAFARD. I'd call them and tell them----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Introduce yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Introduce myself and tell them that I was promoting a twist board exerciser and tell them a little bit about the exerciser and that we would like to arrange a deal where we could put this exerciser in their salon, put it for sale in their salons.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you make any placements?
Mr. CRAFARD. No sir. Excuse me, but this one here was 2140 Fort Worth Avenue in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be in Dallas.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. The phone number would be WH 6-9755. Underneath that is mail brochure. I believe we were supposed to mail a brochure to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that is mail brochure and not Maisel Brothers.
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I am positive that is mail brochure, almost positive of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were you supposed to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mail a brochure to this Stevens Park Beauty Salon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have brochures printed up?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you started to work for him did he have these brochures? When did he first have them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated he got them. He hadn't got them very long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the brochures? How many pages were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. One page. It was a sheet, I believe it was 7 1/2 inches long and I believe it was about 5 1/2 inches wide.
It said "Twist a waist exerciser," and then it showed an exerciser board. Then I believe it showed a couple of the different positions of a person on an exerciser board. I am not positive of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How big were these twist beards?
Mr. CRAFARD. They were about an 8-inch square.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were they made out of?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a 1 1/2-inch pressed board.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be wood of some sort.
Mr. CRAFARD. Pressed wood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a fiberboard?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is not a plastic though?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe these boards were made out of sort of a plastic glue in the press board. Then underneath that would be a ball-bearing disk, sort of a twist setup with a small piece of masonite attached to the bottom of that. The board would twist on the ball bearings.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And would you lie on the floor on this thing?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; you would stand on it and twist.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who designed this item?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know who originally designed the item.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the impression that Jack had designed it himself?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't really know, sir. I never got any idea of who had designed it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the brochure, did it have a picture of the twist board on it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so. I am not positive of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 7, doesn't it.
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Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part of page 7.
Now turning to the back of page 7, there are some entries in pencil, are those all in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what is the first entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ed McMulmore it looks like. It is probably spelled wrong.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is two telephone numbers written after that.
Mr. CRAFARD. There is the word "Johnnie call Detroit."
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there are two telephone numbers.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then the note "Johnnie call Detroit Helene." What does that have to do with--?
Mr. CRAFARD. Johnnie was the first name of one of the MC's Jack had working for him. I don't recall the last name. He got a call to call Detroit, to call Helene in Detroit. Apparently he had the number because that is all I got. I was told to have him call Helene in Detroit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Helene was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I thought it was possibly his wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then there are three blank lines.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And a number written upside down. What number is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is RI 6-6807.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't. I don't believe that is my handwriting. It doesn't appear to be. For one thing for the fact that it is wrote with the page turned upside down, for one thing, and the numbers aren't shaped like any numbers are shaped.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible, referring to the top of the page, that this entry which looks like Ed McMulmore is really Ed Mc, and then Mulmore?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could be; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that mean anything to you reading it that way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now written on the right side up on the back of page 7 after the entry RI 6-6807, there is another entry. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. CEN, which would be I believe the abbreviation for Central, and EX, which I believe would be the abbreviation for Expressway, dash 5400.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that have to do with?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't think anything. I believe that is my writing. Let me see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is or is not?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is. Wait a minute, Jack was going somewhere or somebody else was going for him and he was having trouble, didn't know how to get there. Somebody was going somewhere and they didn't know how to get there and I was talking to the people they was going to see and they told me to have him turn at Central Expressway 5400 on McKinney to 2500.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are directions to get to some place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; McKinney, but I don't remember where.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they directions for you or for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. For somebody else. I don't recall who it was for.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For a friend of Jack's?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall. I give the directions to somebody else but I don't recall who it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is it your understanding then that you would drive out Central Expressway to the 5400 block?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then at the 5400 block you would find McKinney?
Mr. CRAFARD. Make a right-hand turn I believe on McKinney, the 2500 block.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you make a right-hand turn?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I remember something about the conversation. I am trying to remember. I can't remember too much of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a conversation you had with somebody on the telephone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was. I am not positive. I would not swear to it but I believe it was over the telephone that I was given these directions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were to pass the directions on to somebody else?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of Dallas would that be in, following those directions?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would be the southern portion of Dallas, I am not sure. It seems to me 5400 on Central would be the other end of Dallas, the southern end.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back part of page 7. Now on page 8 there are some entries. Whose entries are those?
Mr. CRAFARD. These are my entries.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the first one has to do with somebody named Lenard Woods.
Mr. CRAFARD. Lenard Woods, his social security number, his address, 3420 Medow, Apt. No. 235. These gentlemen on this page are all members of the band that played at the Vegas Club, and it would be Milton Thomas, his social security number, with the address 2220 Anderson, the phone number HA 1-1026; Clarence McInnis, social security number, the address 2607 Oakland, no phone number; James Dotson, the social security number, the address 1136 Fletcher, his phone number RI 7-7436; the name James T. Aycox, his social security number, 2715 Hebornia; I believe it is with a notation under that that he also was known as Bear; they called him the Bear. His phone number was HA 1-1026.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to come to put all of those notations in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack's sister took sick. He had me get the names and the addresses of the boys. I had understood him to say he wanted it for tax purposes and I got the social security numbers too, so he could get in touch with them for one thing when he did want to get in touch with them and also for he said tax purposes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see these men at the Vegas Club and get the information there or did you call them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I got these from, it was either Jack's sister or Pauline. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front side of page 8.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back of page 8 there are some entries. What are those entries?
Mr. CRAFARD. The numbers, the phone number WH 3--9783. That doesn't mean anything to me whatsoever. The phone number TA 7-9088. I can't make out what is underneath it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know for sure. It could be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And this telephone number doesn't mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 8. Let's look at page 9. There are some entries there. Are those in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't remember every making an entry of that sort. For one thing this phone number has been gone over two or three times. These numbers $3, $3.50, that has no meaning whatsoever to me. None of this has any meaning to me whatsoever. I don't recall ever making an entry of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you ever even decipher this 18 and then a 12 and then something is written. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like M-M-L-E-S or it could be M-E-B-L-S. That is as close as I can come to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a telephone number RI 7-5610 also on that page.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so. It could be. It could be, I am not positive.
29
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 9, doesn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part. And there is nothing written on the back of page 9.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is nothing written on the front or back of page 10.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper and there is nothing written on the front or back of what is left of that. Now on page 12 there are some items "supporter, shaving cream, after shave lotion, tooth brush, code 10 hair cream."
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And they are personal items?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That you purchased for yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you began to work for Jack was that entry made?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe about 2 or 3 weeks after I went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be at least 4 or 5 weeks before I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the front part of page 12 and there is nothing else on the front part of page 12. On the back part of page 12 there are a number of entries. Can you read those off to us.
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Bonnie?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Bonnie?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is one of the waitresses at the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is after that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Salami, swiss cheese on rye with mayonnaise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what is the entry.
Mr. CRAFARD. Ham and cheese with mayonnaise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an M or something up ahead.
Mr. CRAFARD. That signifies the mayonnaise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. CRAFARD. PS, I don't know exactly what that PS meant there. There is ham and cheese with mayonnaise. I am not sure what the first part of this was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be Betty or Becky.
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been Becky, probably Becky; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a girl there named Becky, a waitress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; a waitress. Then the next entry on the page is Bill Remike.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called in for reservations at the Carousel Club. To continue with that, Bill Remike, two couples at 9:30 they asked for good locations. The next entry on that is the name Proctor, one couple at 9 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is also a reservation.
Mr. CRAFARD. Also a reservation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back of page 12.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now page 13, there is an entry.
Mr. CRAFARD. The phone number WH 2-5326, Bobby Patterson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Bobby Patterson.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was at the Vegas Club, one of the players at the Vegas Club. I don't have his name down. He had something to do with the band at the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he somebody that you saw? Had you met him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I met Bobby Patterson; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you met him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I saw him once or twice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?
30
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe once at the Carousel Club and I believe I saw him at the Vegas Club one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall now the time you saw him at the Carousel, when was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He come in in the afternoon and talked to Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall how long he stayed?
Mr. CRAFARD. He wasn't there very long, maybe 15 or 20 minutes at the most.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what he talked about with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something about, had something to do with who was in charge of the band at the Carousel or the Vegas Club or something of that sort. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the time that you think you saw him at the Vegas Club.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe one night when I went over with Jack he was there. He played at the Vegas Club. I am trying to get it straight. I think he was a guitar player. No; wait a minute, a horn player, saxophone player I believe it was. And this buddy of his, they had an act where the buddy lay down across two chairs and he stepped up on his buddy's chest and he stood on his buddy's chest playing his horn.
I believe that was Bobby Patterson. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could this guy have been a police officer?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I am very doubtful of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't know any Bobby Patterson who was a police officer?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is no question that you had met a guy named Bobby Patterson.
Mr. CRAFARD. No question there; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would Andy Armstrong know Bobby Patterson?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe he would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That entry is in pencil and there is a line with nothing written on it and then there is another entry under that. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be 3902 East Waco.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who made that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified before you didn't think that was your handwriting.
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I would change that. I would say that was 0902 if you take a close look at it. You can see that, 0902 East Waco.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or could it be E Street Waco?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might be that, but I never made the entry, I would remember it if I saw it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 13. On the back of page 13 there are some entries. What do those seem to be?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'd say the first one would be call Jack at the Carousel. The next one would be call Mr. Ruby at the Carousel. The next one would be Tex Lacy. It is prevedo I would say or something like that. That is all I can make out. Pre, and v-e-d-o.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Were these entries "call Jack Carousel" and "Call Mr. Ruby at the Carousel," were these your entries?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe this would be my entry here, too. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were those notes for yourself or----
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something I told somebody else or something. I don't even--I can't even figure why I would write it down. I don't know. That doesn't really look like my handwriting. I wouldn't have put "Call Mr. Ruby." I'd put "Call Jack." And this looks like "Mr." up at the top of the page. It is something I can't ever remember putting something like that on the top of a page without finishing it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back portion of page 13. Page 14 is about a third of a sheet written in pencil.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that say?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure what it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated this is Boeing and something or other afterward.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then "Frank Fisher."
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Frank Fisher?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you indicated before that you thought that was in connection with twist boards.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still think that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could be twist boards or something to do with these dogs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think something to do with the dogs?
Mr. CRAFARD. Boeing would be possibly Boeing Aircraft and I was making arrangements to ship one of the dogs to California, so it could be something to do with one of the dogs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a Frank Fisher who was a musician and who was a friend of Jack Ruby's?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe I ever met him. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That information doesn't refresh your recollection about Frank Fisher at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 14. On the back of page 14 there is a telephone number.
Mr. CRAFARD. TA 7-2553. I don't recall what the number would be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then a notation about?
Mr. CRAFARD. "Tuna fish with lettuce whole wheat toast dry."
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back of page 14. Now on page 15 at the top there is an entry. What is that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Charley Boland, KTVT with a number LA 6-8303.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember making a call to that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about that notation?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; sir. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next telephone number on there, WE 7-3837?
Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn't mean anything to me. I believe I stated before I put that down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about "Herman Flowers," that doesn't mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So the entry here "Herman Flowers from Wax a Hatchy" is the last entry on the front part of page 15.
We will turn that over and on the back of page 15 there are a lot of numbers written down.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do those numbers have to do with?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea. It is definitely not my figuring.
(Short recess taken.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. We are on page 16 and we are looking at the first entry on the page. What does that entry appear to be?
Mr. CRAFARD. "K. Hamilton."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the rest of the page, I would say that it was somebody had called in for reservations.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It says, "9--3 couples between runway."
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that page 16 is a half sheet of paper and there is nothing more on the page, and turning it over on the back part of that half sheet of paper there is an entry. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. "Mr. Miller Friday 15 people Collins Radio Co." It would be somebody called in for reservations for 15 people.
32
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another entry under that.
Mr. CRAFARD. "Cody-City Hall."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know who Cody was?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had said something about it. I think he was an officer of the law. I'm not sure if he was an officer of the law or a lawyer, or what he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall? Do you recall the name Joe Cody?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't recall the first name of the gentleman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall that Jack said about Cody?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall what Jack really did say. It had something to do with when he give it to me it was something to do with city hall, he had to see him, or he wanted me to remind him to call him, or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When would this have been?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Shortly before you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been 2 or 3 weeks. I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is nothing further on that half sheet of paper, is there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, looking at the top of page 17 there is a number written. What is that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. "TA 3-8101."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whose number that is?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would be the doctor's number. I'm not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Under there is written the name "Dr. Aranoff."
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your writing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who Dr. Aranoff was?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was Mrs. Grant's doctor, as I recall it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall. I never had any conversation with the doctor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line with nothing written on it. has what looks like a telephone number on it. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. The number "FR 4-2764."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a Dallas telephone number?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that. It might be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the number familiar to you at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't recall the number at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And on the next line, what is written?
Mr. CRAFARD. "LA 8-4716," the name "Debby."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the name Debby familiar to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and then there is another line.
Mr. CRAFARD. "Overton Rd.," and "Hawthorne" underneath, it would be Hawthorne Road Drive, I believe, "Porta Build, Inc." company. This is all something of my own here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that have to do with?
Mr. CRAFARD. This is all on my own. At that time, I was going to try to get in touch with my brother-in-law who lives in Dallas, Tex., and this Overton Road, I believe, is where one of the people that I went to church with lived, out on Hawthorne Drive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Porta----
Mr. CRAFARD. I had at one time worked for Porter Building Corp.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When had you worked for them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had worked for them the year before, the previous year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you going to contact them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was thinking about maybe seeing if they needed any men down there, or something.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you make that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. This was about a month before President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever contact them about a job?
Mr. CRAFARD. I called them one time, I believe, and the gentleman wasn't there that I had talked to, and, I never called back. The Litot Trailer Park, that is where we was staying, where my wife and I lived when we was living in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the next entry on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is the number of the Litot Trailer Park.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 17, the front half. On the back half of page 17 there is a notation. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Call Buddy Heard, El Paso, dial direct, tell them that you are in town, that you are a friend and would like to get in touch with him. This is something for Andy. He was to call Buddy Heard in El Paso.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andy go to El Paso?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he was to make a call; dial direct to El Paso as if he was in El Paso. I don't remember exactly what it had something to do with. It seemed like this Buddy here was a comedian or something that Jack was trying to hire or something of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Andy going to try to hire him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was just he was doing that for Jack, trying to find out how to get in touch with him. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two lines with no writing on them, and then there is another entry. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Mary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anybody named Mary, in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning to me except the fact that my sister-in-law's name is Mary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number under that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning to me whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then the next telephone number?
Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That last telephone number on the page is RI 1-1456, and the other telephone number on that page is DA 4-4378. That concludes the back of page 17. Turning over to page 18, there are some entries on there. What is the first entry on the page?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is D 2 with a dash and then the figure 175, $1.75.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure unless it is maybe some draws I took that day or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that is $2 and not $200?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might possibly be $200.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any dealings with anybody about spending $200?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the notation after that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack took $20 from the bar till.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when that was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another entry after that, "Pete White Atty."
Mr. CRAFARD. Pete White, attorney, Fidelity Union Life Building, with a number, RI 1-1295.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anything about Pete White?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what is the next entry on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. The next entry has to do with the twist boards. It is, "Call
34
beauty salon; tell them that I have a twist-a-waist exerciser," and let them have it for $2; in quantities for $1.75 each.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it fair to suggest that the $2-175 that is written at the top of the page and this same entry about $2 and $1.75 both relate to twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 18. Turning over to page 18----
Mr. CRAFARD. The first thing on the page is "Jimmy Rhodes can tell where to get blowups at." Some blowups of some pictures that Jack wanted and this fellow Jimmy Rhodes could tell him where to get them at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jimmy Rhodes?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I heard Jack mention the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and the name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Wooldridge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another line with nothing written on it. Then there is a telephone number.
Mr. CRAFARD. The number WH 6-6220.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that number mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is another line with nothing written on it; and the notation "8-5 tomorrow." What did that have to do with?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another line with nothing written on it. And the name Bob Litchfield.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And a telephone number after that.
Mr. CRAFARD. It is TA 7-9301.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then a name after that.
Mr. CRAFARD. Mrs. Moddy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is she?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was his bookkeeper. I'm not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are some numbers. That concludes page 18, does it not?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With the exception of a telephone number, RI 7-5311, which is right under the name Mrs. Moddy.
Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine it is her number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is some writing on the inside of the back cover. There are three telephone numbers, RI 7-7436, CH 2-3442, CH 2-4114. What do those numbers relate to, if you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another number Newton. There is a name Newton. Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not positive of that. It doesn't appear to be my writing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the number written under the name Newton?
Mr. CRAFARD. 2550.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I don't ever recall of having wrote any of those written in ink.
35
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be everything on that page except the RI 7-7436?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the outside portion of the back cover there are some other things written on there. See if you can tell us what those are.
Mr. CRAFARD. The name J. L. Coxsey.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know this person?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. The name Coxsey is the name of one of the gentlemen I went to church with when my wife and I were living in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would that be spelled?
Mr. CRAFARD. His name was Lee Coxsey.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the same gentleman?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so. And there is the number under that that I can't make out. Then there is a number EV 1-6979, and there is, it looks like LV or something. I can't understand that a bit. There is the number FL 2-8995.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those things in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you left that book when you departed from Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either in Jack's office or in the room right in front of his office where I slept days. I'm not positive whether I left it on his desk or on a stand in my room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But in any event did you leave it in the open, or did you leave it in a drawer?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was lying right out on top of a table or a desk, whichever it was. I'm not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert do you have any questions you want to ask?
Mr. HUBERT. Did I understand you to say earlier this morning that normally you kept that book on your person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't leave it hanging around?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. On occasion, Jack would be there and I would be giving him a number and he would want me to go down maybe get a paper or something like that and I'd leave the book lay on one of the tables near the phone and go down and come back up.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you would get your book back?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess it is fair to say, then, that except for those occasions, and then when you left the book, when you departed from Dallas, the book was always in your possession?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever notice that some of the entries were made by someone else in that book prior to the time you left for Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to say that they were not made prior to the time you left for Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, specifically, some of the entries that you have said are not in your handwriting----
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were not in that book when you left for Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you sure of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nobody else had wrote in the book.
Mr. HUBERT. No one had a chance to?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack would have had a chance to on a few occasions?
Mr. CRAFARD. On a couple of occasions he had a notebook just like it that he carried himself.
Mr. HUBERT. But you never saw these entries even after Jack had occasion to write them in?
36
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. I never noticed them.
Mr. HUBERT. And no one else had a chance to write them in?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that those entries were written prior to the time you left Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I doubt it very much. It was possible, but I doubt very much if they were.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you testified this morning earlier, too, that the book seemed to be somewhat different from when you last saw it in Dallas.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In what ways did it seem different?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were more pages in it than was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Pages with writing, or blank pages?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't recall whether they was all blank pages or whether they had writing on them, or what.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's put it this way: Do you recall any particular pages that are not in that book at the present time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You are not in a position to say, then, really, that any pages with information on them have been taken out?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Your impression that the book is different than it was before you left Dallas is based then upon the size of the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it seem to have fewer blank pages now than it did before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I thought there was half a dozen or so blank pages in the middle of the book last time I used it.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your purpose in leaving the book in Dallas when you determined to go away?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was numbers that, to me, that had to do with this business and they didn't mean anything to me, so I just left it there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that deliberately?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I figured they was numbers that he wanted. It didn't mean anything to me. I had no use for it.
Mr. HUBERT. You wanted to see that he got them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know where you left the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. I either left it--I am not positive exactly where I left it. It was either in his office on the desk or in my room on a stand where he would have saw it.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you didn't write a note saying why you were leaving, where you would be?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't say why other than what I have said the other day.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that Jack would argue you into staying?
Mr. CRAFARD. I thought he probably would; if I called him or anything he would probably do his best to get me to stay, and I had made up my mind to leave and I didn't want to have to argue with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that wouldn't have prevented your writing a note.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or of calling Armstrong.
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn't even think about it a bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think at all about calling anybody?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn't even a matter that you pondered as to whether you should or should not call?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; nothing I had thought of. I never had any idea. I didn't feel that there was any real reason for me to call anyone.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you told me that you felt grateful to Jack for what he had done for you.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that the motivation for your leaving was not any anger.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
37
Mr. HUBERT. On your part against him, but, rather, that you wanted to see your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't think you owed it to him just to leave him a note?
Mr. CRAFARD. It just never entered my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that there might be a question of how much cash you had in fact taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT What about the salary that was owed to you? Weren't you interested in that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn't even think about it.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't say goodbye to anybody when you left Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't advise anyone that you were leaving Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; other than the fact that I give the key to the boy at the parking lot and told him to tell Jack goodbye for me.
Mr. HUBERT. You did send a message of goodbye to Jack through this man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave word where you would be?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave any message to the effect that you had taken $5 out of the till?
Mr. CRAFARD. I left a draw slip in the till just like I always have.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in any kind of trouble there with a girl or something of that sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That required you to leave as hastily as you did?
Mr. CRAFARD No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your custom to move around like that without leaving any contact points?
Mr. CRAFARD. Quite frequently; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who knew you were working at the Carousel among your family or friends?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had wrote my cousin and informed her. I believe I wrote my mother and informed her.
Mr. HUBERT. This girl Gail knew it?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is my cousin.
Mr. HUBERT. That is your cousin?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the cousin I was referring to at this time.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you expect to have happen to the mail that you got at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn't even realize I had left any mail. I had wrote to the people. I hadn't been getting any answers. My mother doesn't write an awful lot, and I hadn't got any letters from my cousin for a little while. My sister hadn't answered the letter I wrote to her, so I just----
Mr. HUBERT. Weren't you going out with a girl that you had gotten fairly close to by that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. She had left Texas at this time. She had left Texas and, as far as I know, went out to California.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else that you were interested in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you say to us now that in your opinion, and by this I mean your departure from Dallas under the circumstances you did depart was normal in your life?
Mr. CRAFARD. Somewhat, yes; most of the time I go to leave, I just take off and go.
Mr. HUBERT. You have done that before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Many times?
Mr. CRAFARD. I've done it two or three times I can recall. I usually leave from around my people, if I'm around my sister I'll say something to her that
38
I'm going to take off and where I plan on going. If I leave home I usually say something to the folks on where I plan on going.
Mr. HUBERT. After you found out that Jack had killed Oswald, did it ever occur to you that the way in which you had left Dallas might seem odd?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it did occur to me that it might seem very odd.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate that view to anyone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I said something to my sister to the effect that I thought it might be kind of suspicious the way I had left Dallas, so suddenly, without saying anything to anybody.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to your cousin, too?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know for sure if I said anything to Gail about that or not.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us that you spoke to your cousin, I am talking about Roberts now, about the fact that you had left Dallas on Saturday evening and the manner in which you left.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall saying anything to him about the fact that I thought it might be suspicious.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I am not suggesting that. But what I want to ask you is whether he thought that the way in which you left might throw some suspicion.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall him saying anything about it, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that perhaps one easy way to clarify your position would be to contact the FBI or some police agency and tell them where you were?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn't think about that. I figured that if they were looking for me, if I had heard anything about the fact that they were looking for me I figured I'd go to the nearest police station and tell them who I was and that they was looking for me. But that is the only thing I thought about on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't you rather know that they were looking for you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wasn't positive that they were. I thought they might be; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had a pretty good idea that they might be?
Mr. CRAFARD. Like I say, I thought they might be looking for me but I wasn't positive.
Mr. HUBERT. Wouldn't you want to find out positive evidence they were looking for you?
Mr. CRAFARD. If there had been any definite evidence they were looking for me, I would have went into the nearest police station and told them who I was.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by definite evidence?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact I knew for sure they were. I said I just thought that they might be.
Mr. HUBERT. You just told us that you thought that they might be?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right; I said that I thought they might be.
Mr. HUBERT. That wasn't enough to cause you to----
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; it isn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you contemplating, as a matter of fact, going to some police agency prior to the time the FBI came to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe that I was.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you expect to get this positive evidence that they were looking for you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I just figured if it was possible they might put something in the paper or maybe something over the radio or something and if I heard that they was looking for a young fellow that had worked for Ruby by the name of Larry or anything like that, they was looking for this young fellow that had worked for Ruby or anything, that I would have went in and told them who I was.
Mr. HUBERT. I understood you said there was no radio or newspaper at your sister's house.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; but I was at other people's places that had radios.
Mr. HUBERT. You expected to get the information that way?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn't stay with my sister all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you were making an effort to find out if they were looking for you?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I was where I would have found out if it was so, yes, on several occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you went to listen to radio programs or TV programs with an effort to find out, among other things, whether they were looking for you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you might communicate with them and tell them where you were?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. I figured one thing. I hadn't done anything wrong. I had no reason to hide from anything because I hadn't done anything wrong, so if there had been any indication whatsoever that they was looking for me I would have walked into the nearest police station and turned myself in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that anybody else had done anything wrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I knew from what I had heard that Ruby had killed, shot Oswald, I knew it was wrong. Like I say, I mean I had no idea that anybody else connected with him had done anything.
Mr. HUBERT. What made you think in the first place that there might be some suspicion cast upon you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the way I left, after I found out that Ruby shot Oswald, the way I left, I thought just suddenly like that, didn't leave any word to anybody where I was going or anything.
Mr. HUBERT. How would that connect you with the killing of Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had been working for Ruby. He had shot Oswald. It could be kind of insinuating circumstances why I left and everything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had left before Oswald was shot?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had left before Oswald was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. So that really your concern was not that they would connect you with the killing of Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But that----
Mr. CRAFARD. They might think that I had done something wrong, myself.
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to what?
Mr. CRAFARD. To anything, I mean breaking the law in any way.
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the shooting of the President, too?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to shooting of the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it could be that they might have thought I was involved in that in some way or something like that, and I just figured if they thought, you know, the way I had left if they had any idea at all that would further their idea, I mean if they had any idea that any of Ruby's employees were involved in it, that would further the idea that I had been involved in this, in it.
Mr. HUBERT. You actually thought about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I felt----
Mr. HUBERT. That was the thing that gave you concern and that is what you talked to your sister about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it kind of bothered me a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Couldn't you have ended the bother by going to the nearest police force?
Mr. CRAFARD. I probably could have. I never even thought about going in like that, just walking in and talking to them, asking them about it or anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you fear when you left Dallas that things might be happening which would get you in trouble?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it never entered my mind. I figured that that would be the end of things when they had caught Oswald, I kind of figured that would be the end of it and he would come to trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you fear that things might be happening which would get Jack or other people you knew in trouble?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's put it point blank to you, Larry. Did you think that possibly Ruby or someone among his friends might have had something to do with this and the best thing for you to do as an innocent person was to get out of there?
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Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I didn't, because if I had had the slightest idea that him or anybody he knew had anything to do with it, the first thing I would have done would have been to walk right straight down to the police station.
Mr. HUBERT. Then when you found out that he had killed Oswald, didn't it occur to you that he might be killing Oswald to remove the President's murderer?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe it really did occur to me at that time; no.
Mr. HUBERT. You see the point now, don't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I understand what you are trying to say. But later we discussed the fact that Oswald and Ruby might have been connected, as I believe everybody else has.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think there is anything, can you think of anything as a result of what you saw down there in Dallas that would indicate that Jack shot Oswald out of some kind of fear?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can't really think of anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Out of some motive of self-preservation other than, or not necessarily connected with the shooting of the President, but that he would have feared Oswald in any kind of a way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can't think of anything that would prove that, that would give me any reason to believe that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea on the basis of your experience with Jack and so forth as to why he shot Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I haven't, other than the fact that I believed ever since it happened that Jack was out of his mind. I believe right today that the man should be in a mental institution.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that simply because you can't conceive of anybody doing what he did, or from some other facts?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't conceive of a man that is in his right mind walking up to a man, just walking up to a man, putting a gun in his belly and pulling the trigger.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In a police station?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, I can't conceive of it, of any man that is in his right mind doing so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, other than that, is there any indication that you had that Jack wasn't in his right mind?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you saw him for a period of about maybe 18 hours after the President was shot. In that period that you saw him after the President was shot, is there anything that indicated to you that he wasn't in his right mind in the way that, you know, his behavior was markedly different?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From the way Jack Ruby usually acted?
Mr. CRAFARD. One thing he was kind of, when he would speak it was kind of a choppy way of speaking. He would say two or three words, wait and then say two or three more, which wasn't usual for Jack. He might bust off in the middle of a sentence and then pause for a couple of seconds before he completed the sentence.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this what you were referring to when you talked about Jack being nervous?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very much that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the kind of nervousness that a man might have if he were afraid himself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that is possible, a man that was afraid for himself would be nervous like this; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You observed those conditions prior to the time you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. This nervous condition?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; on the night when we went out and took those pictures he was pretty well that way, he would talk in a burst and he would stop and then talk in a burst again.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, isn't it a fact that the reason why you left was because you didn't want to have any part of what you saw going on then?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I don't understand what you mean by that.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw Jack being nervous. You saw him taking all these pictures. You saw his great concern about the death of the President. Didn't it occur to you, and isn't it a fact that the reason you had left was because you figured that you didn't want to have any part of anything that was going on, although you didn't know what was going on? Isn't that a fact?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I cannot say that it is, because I had no idea there was anything going on, period.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about Jack that indicated to you a peculiar concern about the death of the President, that the death of the President itself was some sort of a concern, a great concern to him more than it seemed to be to you or to Andy or anybody else?
Mr. CRAFARD. It seemed to me more like it was more of a personal effect on him than it did on anybody else that I talked to very much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't really explain it. To me, I was shocked and everything, but it wasn't like it had been a member, more or less, say, a member of my own family. With him, it hit him more like it had been a member of his own family, it seemed to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was something he said in that connection?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he said something, but I don't recall what he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Were you present when Jack learned that Officer Tippit had been shot?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. I'm not sure. I think Jack was at the club or come to the club just shortly afterward.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack's talking about Officer Tippit?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I think he said he knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk a lot about the death of the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe any more than anybody else did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Tippit? Did he talk about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't recall as he said much about it other than the fact that he said he knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated yesterday that you felt Jack's concern over the death of the President was related to his concern for the convention business in Dallas. You remarked about his saying this is going to ruin the convention business.
Mr. CRAFARD. Something to that effect. That was one of the first things he said, but that was the only time he referred to it that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you look at his activities, do you think that his concern or what had happened down in Dallas, meaning the death of the President and perhaps even the death of Officer Tippit, that Jack's concern might have been more related to his fear about what would be happening to his business rather than any sympathy and grief over the man himself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can't say that he did. I mean it seems to me like if a man was really concerned about his business he wouldn't have closed Friday night like he did. It seems to me like something like that--you know what I mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, again, that is an impression you are drawing from some sort of outside event?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you to look at just what Jack was talking about and the things that he seemed to be concerned with and occupied with after the death of the President.
Were they things, was his conversation mostly about the President, or was it mostly about the things that he had to do in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was mostly about the President, as near as I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with him at the Carousel about the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, while he was there the first time we was talking about it. I'm trying to recall there was something said there when he said something
42
about he was going to be closed, that we was going to be closed that night. He seemed to think if we closed and the other clubs stayed open it might help a little bit, help the club a little bit, or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that in Jack's mind closing was an aid to his business?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Larry, when you decided to go, to leave Dallas, I take it that you packed up all your belongings because you didn't expect to come back.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us you had two little cases?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you search around to see that you had done all that needed to be done?
Mr. CRAFARD. I knew I had everything that I wanted to take with me. I left a couple old shirts and a pair of old pants, I believe, that I left there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about that letter that you had written to Gale?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't even recall a letter that I had wrote to her that I had left there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that there was a letter there with your aunt's address on it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had received a letter, but I believe I had threw the envelope into the waste basket or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before you left had you received that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it had been probably about a week, I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it stay in the wastebasket all that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I had it lay on my desk, on the table there, for a couple days, 3 or 4 days, or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. And then threw it in the wastepaper basket?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the wastebasket wouldn't have gotten empty until I emptied it, and I wouldn't have emptied it until it was full.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else know about your aunt, her address in Harrison?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack and Andy both knew that I had received a letter from my cousin.
Mr. HUBERT. Your aunt and cousin? Well, it is Gail?
Mr. CRAFARD. Gail, Miss Eaton.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they know that? How do you remember that they knew that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact, the reason I remember it, there was some mail in on Jack's desk for one of the guys and he told me to bring it out by the cash register on the front desk and give it to them when I went in, and when I went and got it there was this letter addressed to me. I said something to Jack because he hadn't give it to me and he said he didn't know that was my name, and Andy was there when I said something.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason to believe that he or Andy made a record of your aunt's address?
Mr. CRAFARD. No
Mr. HUBERT. When you left, then, so far as you knew, no one was aware of your aunt's address or of Gail Eaton's address?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You had forgotten that the envelope was in the wastepaper basket?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had said something to one of the waitresses about my cousin in Michigan, about where she had lived in Michigan, that she lived in Harrison.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one of the waitresses did you say that to?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two of them there at the time. I think it was Bonnie and Little Marg, Marjory.
Mr. HUBERT. You had told them that you had a cousin called Gail?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that she lived in Harrison?
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Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How close a cousin was that to you, a first cousin?
Mr. CRAFARD. A first cousin.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sort of affection between you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there was.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you told that to the girls?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the fact.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Gail when you stopped with your aunt?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, she knew you worked for Ruby at a Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got to see her, the news was out that Ruby had killed Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to her about your connection with Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we discussed it; yes. I know we talked about it. I told her about what I had done for Jack, what kind of work I had done with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her when you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her or them--by them I mean your aunt and uncle the circumstances under which you had left?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know for sure if I did or not, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You must have told them that you left prior to Oswald's being shot.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I told them that I had left Saturday, about noon Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they seem to express any concern about the matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you come to form in your own mind some concern about the matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not other than the fact that I figured that I did say if I heard anything in the news about looking for an employee of Ruby's that had left, I would go to the law officers and let them know who I was and that I had been working for Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. But, as I understand it, then, the only one that really discussed with you the position or the suspicion that you might be under was your sister, and that neither your aunt nor your uncle nor your cousin, Gail, nor your other cousin, Cliff Roberts, and his wife, expressed any concern or discussed the matter with you at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall where there was anything said about that I might be suspected of anything.
Mr. HUBERT. The only one you really talked to about that was your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You got to see her, I think, the night before the FBI came, didn't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you really hadn't had an opportunity to listen to any radios or newspapers or to see whether anyone was looking for one of Jack's employees who had left suddenly?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not too much; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you had any?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just in the cars, when I was riding in the cars if they had the radio on and the news was on I could hear whatever come over the news that way.
Mr. HUBERT. That concern, then, that resolution of yours that if you heard about that you would turn yourself in to the police was formed much earlier than when you got to see your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was formed when?
Mr. CRAFARD. Shortly after I heard, found out that Ruby had shot Oswald. I decided the fact if I heard anything in the news about that--that they was hunting for one of Ruby's employees--I would have gone to the nearest law officers and told them that I had been an employee of Ruby's.
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Mr. HUBERT. I guess we had better break for lunch.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED
(The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me repeat the statement we have been making at the beginning of every one of these sessions, that this is a continuation of the deposition which was begun on Wednesday morning with Mr. Crafard and, of course, you understand, Larry, that the oath which you took at the beginning is still in effect for this deposition.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before we proceed with the examination of further documents, I might mention for the record that Mr. Crafard and I had lunch this afternoon at Hogates Restaurant and we discussed informally some of his experiences in Dallas and his impressions of the events that have transpired since he first came to Dallas and since he left Dallas, and I might--I am going to raise a few of the topics, and I hope I cover them all. If I have left any of them out, I wish, Larry, that you would clarify the record on it.
I ask you, first of all, if we had a conversation about the homosexual relationship that you had mentioned before of Jack Ruby and George Senator?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did I ask you whether you felt that Jack and George were involved in a homosexual relationship between themselves?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your view of their relationship?
Mr. CRAFARD. My personal opinion is the fact that there was no relationship between the two due to the fact, mostly because of the fact that they did not show the general affection towards each other that two men in this type of relationship would tend to show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions you would like to ask on that topic, Mr. Hubert?
Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday, you gave us the opinion that you thought both Ruby and Senator were possibly homosexuals.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. But your point now is that they might be, but that you didn't perceive anything that would indicate that they practiced homosexuality between themselves?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. There was, to my opinion, they were both appeared to me to have a homosexual tendency of sorts, but showed no--but it showed no signs that there was a relationship between the two of them in this way.
Hr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we also discussed whether or not you believed that Jack Ruby was capable of engaging in activities which he would keep secret from other people.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us now what your view is about his ability, whether he is the kind of person that could have engaged in that activity?
Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of his background and what I know of him, I would say definitely that he is the type of person that could engage in an activity of any type without anyone else having any knowledge of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you want to ask any questions on that?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We also discussed at lunch whether or not there you have any recollection of any connection between Ruby and Oswald, and you mentioned to me a statement that you heard made at one time. Would you tell us what that was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was the one I made just as we got out of the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
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Mr. CRAFARD. If I recall the words, I said, I told you that I believe that before I left Dallas I had heard someone state that Oswald had been in the Carousel Club on at least one previous occasion, that I wasn't positive who had made the statement, that I believed that it was made before I left Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate to me you had some idea?
Mr. CRAFARD. I thought it had been Andrew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, you mean Andy Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You say before you left Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, before you left Dallas the last time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Before I left Dallas after the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean before you left Dallas on November 23?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. It seems to me that something had been said about Oswald being in the club, and I figured that probably it had been Andrew who said this because I had talked to him--been with him--more than I had been with anybody else on that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Andrew since?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only at the Ruby trial in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention it to him, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I hadn't even thought about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about it then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, this statement must have been made to you between 12:30 on the 22d and about really 5 or 6 o'clock in the afternoon of the 23d.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see Andy after that, did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I only saw Andy--I never saw Andy after the 22d, when President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. HUBERT. That is right. Andy woke you up, you all looked at TV, and then Jack came in and they all went off and you went to bed.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you got up the next morning and talked to Ruby.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't Ruby who said that, was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't George Senator who said it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody else?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to anybody else other than that girl on the phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. She didn't mention it to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else could it be but Andy Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. I said I believe I heard this statement had been made before I left Dallas, I am not positive that it was made before I left Dallas, I might have heard the statement afterwards, after I left Dallas or after I went back, but I believe I heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.
Mr. HUBERT. If you did hear it before you left Dallas, it had to be Armstrong; isn't that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There is no question about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Because you didn't speak to anybody else that you could have gotten it from?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you think it is possible that you read it in the paper?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so. I didn't read the papers on it too much. I had a couple of the papers----
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you got it over the radio or TV or any other news media?
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Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that you got the statement that Ruby--that Oswald had been in the Carousel Club from a person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, if it was after you left Dallas, can you help us as to what person that might have been?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I cannot.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been any of your relatives?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been anybody you worked with?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so. If it had been after I left Dallas it would have been somebody who picked me up when I was hitchhiking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to me, Larry, I think in the car, that Sunday you watched television someplace, that you may have seen this on television Sunday.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't see television Sunday, I was on the road all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't stop in any restaurants or bars and watch television along the way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I watched television the day of the assassination and saw him on the morning after.
Mr. HUBERT. On Monday?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the morning after the assassination, Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday between the time that you talked with Ruby, when you called him at his home----
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the time that you left Dallas, did you see anybody other than the man at the garage with whom you left the key?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to talk to anybody; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you rode out of Dallas with that man whom you had met at the State Fair, did you talk with him about the assassination?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe we discussed it very much. He was telling me about his place out on the lake more than anything else, so far as I recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know you had worked for Jack Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about the fact that I worked for Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man know Jack Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD, No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that he would have mentioned having seen Oswald at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever been in the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Saturday--or on Friday, rather, the day of the assassination, did you and Andy and Jack Ruby watch television at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. Some, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing Oswald's picture on television on Friday?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember it, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember watching television or listening to the radio when it was announced that Oswald had been apprehended and was the suspect?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let's see. I believe we heard that over the television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of who was present when you heard that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you have a recollection on Friday of your activities from the time Andy woke you up until Jack left to go to Eva Grant's house? Can you reconstruct for us your activities in some detail?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a vague outline is all I can do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to reconstruct this as best you can, what you did first, how long you watched television, and so forth.
Mr. CRAFARD. I had the television on the rest of the day up until about--it must have been about 7 or 7:30 when I turned the television off.
47
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the television set located?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Jack's office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How big an office did he have?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, about 10 by l0 or 10 by 12.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have chairs in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a couch, a desk, and a chair in front of his desk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend a good bit of the day in that office watching television?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. After you got up, when did you first go into that office and start to watch television?
Mr. CRAFARD. Almost immediately.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you stay in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. We turned the television on and there was nothing on the television just right at that time, on the channel we had it on. We switched channels, while the set was warming up we went out front and listened to Andy's radio until the television warmed up, and then we watched television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack Ruby wasn't there at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you stood in front of the television?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, we stood and watched the television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it possible to sit in Jack's office and watch television?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a couple of minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you sit, and where was the television set?
Mr. CRAFARD. We sat on the couch and the set was in the corner behind the door. There was a filing cabinet between it and the wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And sitting on the couch you could watch the television set?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to close the door in order to watch the television set?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a telephone in that office?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away, how many extensions were there to the telephone?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was three of them altogether.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There were three extensions or was there a telephone----
Mr. CRAFARD. The telephone and two extensions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Where were the two extensions in relation to the telephone in Jack's office?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was one by the bar and one by the door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away would that be from Jack's office, each of those?
Mr. CRAFARD. The first one, the one by the door would probably be 20, maybe 20, 25 feet from the office. The other one would be maybe about 10 feet further, between 30 and 35 feet, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You and Andy placed yourselves in front of that television set?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall happening, what was the first thing, do you have any recollection of what you saw on television, how things transpired on television?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't. I believe they were at the hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Pardon?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were at the hospital when we turned the television on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall seeing some scenes at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I can recall seeing some scenes but I am not sure whether it was as soon as we turned, the television on or afterwards during that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall seeing on television before Jack Ruby came into the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't really recall what we saw on television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were, between the time you turned that television
48
set on and sat down and watched it and Jack came in, did you leave the office, did you do other duties in the club, or just watch TV?
Mr. CRAFARD. We just watched television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in, were you people seated in his office?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack arrived, did you go out into the outer part of the club to talk with Jack, or did you remain in the office?
Mr. CRAFARD. We went out by the front door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. More room for all of us to sit down who was in the office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you watch television from the front door?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep abreast of the news while you were out there by the front door?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy had his transistor radio on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was between the time that you and Andy sat there and watched television before Jack came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't really say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a clock in Jack's office?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever looking at that clock while you were watching television?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the clock wasn't--It was one you had to wind, and it wasn't wound half the time. We didn't pay any attention to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ordinarily wear a watch?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't, there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the period before Jack Ruby came in, did you get a mea1 of any sort, any food?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and Andy discuss the events on television as you sat and watched it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine we did. I don't recall saying anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did anybody come into the club before Jack arrived?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Not that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the female employees of the club arriving at the club on the day, on the 22d?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you think specifically about Tammi True, do you recall if she came?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you say you don't recall, that is not the same as saying that she didn't come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you would not make the statement, or would you, that she didn't come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would not make that statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as to any of the other girls--Joy Dale, for example?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn't make the statement of the fact that none of them came into the club. I would say it was possible that any of them came into the club, but I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if any of them had stayed for any length of time, 5, 10 minutes, or more, do you think you would have remembered it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don't recall anybody coming in and staying as long as 10 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in and you people sat out at the front of the club, how far were you seated from the telephones?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was right beside the telephone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the one near the door?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
49
Mr. GRIFFIN. You would have been, then, about 10 feet away from the one at the bar?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you sat there with Jack, did you all sort of keep your ears glued to the radio, or was there a general conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was talking. We had the radio up loud enough so we could hear, but we was talking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a continuous conversation, or were there long pauses in the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall. I don't remember. We might have stopped, we might just sat there 10 or 15 minutes at a time,; I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long did Jack stay there with you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember. It seems to me he was there probably a couple of hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think Jack was there a couple of hours with you in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He might have been; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while Jack was there, did you ever go back into his office and watch television?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we did; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of how long you remained with Jack in his office watching television?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or how long it was after he came in that you went into his office to watch television?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. It seems to me like it wasn't very long after he came before we went back into the office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of talking with Jack about the dog that you were going to send to California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not on that day, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you had talked about that, would you remember it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I would have, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Certainly the knowledge that the suspected killer of the President of the United States had been in the Carousel where you worked would have come to you as a pretty heavy shock; isn't that a fair statement?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you, then, that you can remember just when that shock hit you.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can't.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact, Larry, that you can tell us whether it came from Armstrong definitely or that you just picked it up on one of these rides later on because, as I say, it had to hit you and you admitted it was a shock.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you were alone with the person who told it to you, or was anybody else present?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember that, either, sir. Most of that day is very vague in my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your best guess--that Andy Armstrong told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if it had come from Andy Armstrong, it would have made more of an impression on you than if it had come from some person who had heard it as a rumor or over the radio, wouldn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, putting your mind to it in that way, can't you help us a bit more as to who actually told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I can't. I have thought about it. I can't recall exactly who it was or exactly where it was I heard it. I believe it was before I left Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And if it was before you left Dallas, you already told us it had to be Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
50
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I come to, in effect, the question I asked you this morning, Larry. I don't want you to feel bound by what you said at another time unless it was the truth.
Mr. CRAFARD. I realize that.
Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you that the real motivation for leaving Dallas was that you had found out that Oswald had been in the club, and that the matter was getting a little too thick for you and you wanted out of it.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is not true?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; that is not true.
Mr. HUBERT. You say that is not true even if it is possible that Armstrong told you that Oswald had been in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. If that is the case it was a subconscious thought. It wasn't conscious to where I would remember it. It would have been a subconscious thought that it was the case.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't understand you when you say it was a subconscious thought.
Mr. CRAFARD. Just that. It wouldn't have been something that I thought about for any period of time. It would have been something that I had heard it and it just, I didn't even think about it, and then subconsciously that could have something to do with my leaving, but on a conscious level I will say no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall discussing it with this person who told you, in any way, so that you ascertained from the person how they knew?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had it been Armstrong wouldn't you have asked him, "Well, how do you know that, Andy? When did you see him? Where did you see him? Who was he with?" You would have asked those questions, wouldn't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would have asked him how he knew for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall asking the person who told you that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if you had heard that from some of the people that you had been riding with it would have had to be after Ruby had shot Oswald, wouldn't it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it seems so. Otherwise, I wouldn't have known about Ruby being involved with him.
Mr. HUBERT. That is correct. But you didn't find out about Ruby being involved until Monday morning.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, it had to be after that so far as you are concerned?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, if I wasn't in Dallas. I believe that I heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.
Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, unless you want to tell us some other things, it had to be Armstrong.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. That is all I can--I can't say for sure who it was, and I can't even say for sure that I heard the statement before I left Dallas. But I believe that it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was that you first began to think about this statement?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the people in Michigan, your relatives in Michigan about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember, sir. I might have, with my sister, but I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You told me, I believe, in the automobile that you had not been aware until I mentioned it to you in the car that Bill DeMar had made the statement that he saw Oswald in the club.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think, if someone had told you, one of your relatives or somebody like that had told you, one of Ruby's performers or somebody who worked for Ruby had said that he saw Oswald there, do you think you would have remembered that kind of information being conveyed to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I might have remembered something about the fact that one
51
of them had said, that one of his employees had said, that Oswald had been there; but I wouldn't necessarily remember who it was who had said it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if somebody said to you one of Ruby's entertainers claims he saw Oswald in the club, what would your reaction have been?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been that----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't know which entertainer it was or employee who said that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn't really know whether it was true or not. I probably would state the fact that I had never saw him there personally that I knew of.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me get through with this and see if this won't help you out.
If you had heard this statement that Oswald had been in the Carousel, before you knew that Ruby had shot him, that would have had one reaction on you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that the man happened to be in the club.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. If you had heard it after you knew Ruby had shot Oswald, I suggest to you that that would have been an entirely different reaction, because then it ties in Ruby and the club. Now doesn't that assist you by determining what your reaction was when you heard it, whether it was the first type of reaction or the second type of reaction, or do you agree with me that your reaction would have been different depending upon when you heard it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would have been; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you accept my version that there would be two different types along the lines I have said?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there would have been.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your reaction, the first or the second?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't really remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, when you talked with the FBI on Thanksgiving Day----
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe the FBI asked you did you know any connection between Ruby and Oswald.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I believe your answer at that time was that you did not.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked with the FBI were you being as frank and straight-forward with them as you are with us right now?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; as much as I--to the best of my knowledge I told them nothing but the truth the same as I am doing with you gentlemen.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to them that you then knew that someone had told you that Oswald had been in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe I did because I--I don't believe I did. I didn't recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you stating to us that you would not have recalled a statement made to you about Oswald being in the club, which statement had, by any hypothesis, already been made to you, when they asked you if you knew of any connection between them?
Mr. CRAFARD. The thing is that if I remembered it, I would have said so, told, said something to them. If I didn't say anything to them, I didn't remember the fact.
Mr. HUBERT. They asked you if you knew of any connection between them, didn't they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe they did.
Mr. HUBERT. And you then knew that someone had told you he had been in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe they did.
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn't you tell them that you knew that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I evidently didn't remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. But you have already stated that this thing made a great impression upon you.
Mr. CRAFARD. I know that, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry----
52
Mr. HUBERT. Let me follow this through a bit. Didn't they, in fact, ask you if you had heard the rumor that Oswald had been in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know exactly how he asked me about it, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't he ask you, in fact, if you had ever seen him in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he asked me that question; yes. I believe he might have. My answer would have been----
Mr. HUBERT. Is your statement to us if he asked you that question it would not have recalled to your memory that someone had told you that he had been in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. My statement is that it did not at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a little bit frightened when the FBI talked with you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at all concerned that your flight from Dallas might make you a suspect of some sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe--I don't remember having any such belief; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your feeling towards the FBI when they talked to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That they were talking to me because of the fact that I had worked for Ruby, and they wanted to know what I knew about Ruby's movements in hopes that there might be something there that would help them in their investigation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time when you talked to the FBI you formed a tentative opinion about the connection between Ruby and Oswald or the motivation for Jack's doing what he did?
Mr. CRAFARD. I figured, formed the opinion, myself, as far as I could figure Jack must have been out of his mind to shoot Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this, would you say this was a strong opinion that you had?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I will say that it is the sort of opinion I have now, it has been right along ever since I found out that Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But in spite of having that opinion that there was somewhere along the line you began to think if there could be any connection between Ruby and Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have considered the fact that there was a connection; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start to think about this?
Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine I more likely thought about it as soon as I found out or just shortly after I found out that Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In trying to think about that connection, have you been thinking about this rather regularly since then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I have pretty well forgot just about, even, almost forgot about it entirely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it has been that you have been--have forgotten about any thoughts you might have had that there could be a connection between Ruby and Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I have just almost completely--I haven't had a thought about any of this since I appeared at the trial. I was of the opinion that I was through with it and that I would just as soon forget about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about when you started to work in the oil field up there in Michigan for the drilling company? At that time, did you ponder from time to time whether there was any connection between Ruby and Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember doing so; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Keeping these sort of questions in mind, can you tell us when it was before today that you first remembered that somebody might have told you that Oswald had been at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I know definitely that I was told by somebody that Oswald had been in the club, but I haven't given that fact too much thought until we was talking this afternoon during the lunch break there, and it seemed to me the statement had been made to me before I left Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you when you remembered that statement. Keep in mind I am distinguishing between the time you actually heard the statement made and when you first remembered it again.
Mr. CRAFARD. I remembered hearing the statement that Oswald had been in the club, but I believe there was something in the news about the fact that he had been in the club two or three times.
53
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when you saw this in the news, did that bring to you a recollection that someone had also told you this independently?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall it doing so; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is it possible that the recollection that you are giving us here is simply something that you really didn't hear anybody tell you but that you just read in the newspapers?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could be that it is mixed up in my own mind about the fact that it come out that way, but I wouldn't know for sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure now whether you independently remember somebody telling you this or whether you just read about it in the newspaper, and now are confused as to whether your source is from somebody telling you or from the newspaper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am almost positive that the statement was made to me by a person, but it could have been that, like I say it could have been, after I left Dallas, after it came out that Ruby had shot Oswald, somebody had heard the statement over the television or read it in the newspapers themselves, and made the statement to me that they had heard that he had been in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. I come back to the point I made a little while ago, and I would like you to consider it again because apparently, as you say, you have not given this matter a great deal of thought up until now. I suggest to you again that your reaction when you heard it would have been quite different if you had heard that rumor about Oswald being in the club before Ruby shot Oswald than it would have been if you had heard it after he shot him.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now that reaction of yours is, I think, the key to your recollection of it, and I suggest that you put your mind to it, Larry, to see what--to have a recollection, if you can, which is true, of course, but which will reflect what your reaction was. It has got to be a different reaction between the two, and I think you have agreed with me on that.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do. I believe that--I am not sure whether it was hearing a statement there when it was made to me or hearing it over the television or something like that. It was something about the statement where I said that if he had been I didn't know about it, and I didn't believe Jack did either or something of that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you are telling us then that at the time you heard this you made a comment?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. You made a comment to the person who told you that Oswald had been in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And at the same time you made that comment that you hadn't seen Oswald in the club, you said you didn't believe that Ruby did it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn't believe that Ruby had saw him in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. That must have been then after Ruby was involved?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That would put it after Monday morning, November 25?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, according to that it couldn't have been before you left Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. According to that; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you still, in light of that do you still, have the recollection that you did hear it before you left Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Larry: If you had heard this before you left Dallas, was your feeling nevertheless about Ruby's insanity or state of mind so strong at the point when you learned that Ruby shot Oswald that you would have regarded such a statement as being of minimal importance or was your initial reaction to Ruby's having shot Oswald a sort of quizzical one in which you really hadn't made up your mind about the man?
Mr. CRAFARD. My original reaction when I first heard about it was the fact I couldn't really believe that he had done it. I just couldn't believe, I couldn't make myself believe, that Jack had done it.
54
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that? Was there something about Jack----
Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of him he didn't strike me as the type of person that would do so. I later made up my mind that, I come to the opinion, if he had done it, if he had done it, he must have been insane when he had done it, before I saw anything on television about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that your initial reaction that Jack couldn't have done this also reflected what you had seen of him on Friday and Saturday, that he wasn't in such--didn't appear to you to be in such--a state of mind at that time as being one who wanted to go out and kill.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And who wasn't so upset about the killing of the President that he would be motivated by grief or something like that to do such a thing.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you didn't see him crying or weeping or emotionally, terribly emotionally, upset about the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn't actually see him crying. His eyes were very red as if he had been crying the last time I saw him on Friday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is that Saturday morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. Friday. But then again it struck me so hard that when I finally realized that it really had happened, it struck me so hard, that I almost cried myself. I believe there was a lot of people throughout the country, men and women alike, that cried when they heard about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But still other than that reaction which you saw on Jack, there seemed to be nothing about Jack that made him appear any more grief stricken than any of the rest of you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of a person who was given to concealing his emotions?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not so far as I know; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about concealing his hostility toward other people, did you ever have any indication that he concealed his hostility toward other people?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. In fact, I would say it would be the other way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any people that he regarded as enemies in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. One person that he absolutely didn't have any liking for was this one MC from one of the other clubs that come up there once in a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack display his feelings toward that guy?
Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, on two or three occasions, he told the guy he didn't care to have him around the club, and he just as soon he didn't come to the club, and on one occasion he told the man to leave the club and not to come back again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But after the man was out of his sight was Jack the kind of person that he continued to talk about him and complain to the employees or other people that he was with about somebody who was--about whom he was annoyed or upset with? Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went on for a few minutes about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about his feelings toward his sister Eva?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can remember; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you weren't aware of any hard feelings between Eva and Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his feelings toward Abe Weinstein, the man who ran the Colony Club, did Jack discuss those feelings?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. From what I can remember any time Jack talked to Mr. Weinstein they got along fairly good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So am I correct in understanding the way you describe Jack when he had somebody that he didn't like or had some hostility toward, that he would only display this in the presence of that person in solving some problem with the individual face to face?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.
55
Mr. HUBERT. Let me get back to the afternoon of the 22d again. What time did Andrew Armstrong leave, do you remember?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the exact time; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe 3:30, 4 o'clock, maybe a little later.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave before Jack left?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was after Jack left.
Mr. HUBERT. And you never saw him again really until you saw him in the courthouse in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Later that night you were with Jack; weren't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, everybody was reading, talking about Oswald.
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure; sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that Ruby had a paper, was reading a newspaper?
Mr. CRAFARD. He more than likely did, but I don't remember it, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are aware that Oswald had shot the President or that it was believed that he had?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were talking with Ruby about the whole thing, weren't you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I imagine.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if at that time you knew from Armstrong that Oswald had been in the club, don't you think you would have mentioned to Jack, "Say, you know somebody says Oswald was in the club?"
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe I would have mentioned the fact that I had been told that Oswald had been in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that help your memory as to when you got this remark?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn't. The fact it even makes me more positive that it was after I left Dallas before I heard about it, because if I had said something like that to Jack I believe I would have remembered it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I'll tell you what I suggest you do, since the matter has only been really brought to your attention in the last hour or so, you know, I suggest that you give it some more thought and try to reconcile the different possibilities that exist as to when this information came to you in light of the questions we have asked you and the possibilities that have been expressed. Would you do that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have been doing so right along.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's go to something else, and we can come back to that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it might be well to let it rest for a while. I am going to hand you, Larry, a Xerox copy of pages out of the notebook, and I have marked this "Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard Exhibit 5203, April 9, 1964," and I am going to sign my name to it. Now, I want you to take this Exhibit 5203 and look at those pages and leaf through it and tell me if you have ever seen that before.
Mr. CRAFARD. There are nine pages in this one. I believe this is a notebook that Jack carried in his pocket.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5203 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you believe that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I recall seeing a notebook with these tear-out tabs on it that he carried. I am not sure whether this is the one or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Xerox copy which I have handed you is marked on the cover page "This is a Robinson Reminder."
Mr. CRAFARD Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there are what you call tear sheets.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does the first one say?
Mr. CRAFARD. "Jot it down . . ."
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second tear sheet, tear-out sheet?
Mr. CRAFARD. "Do it . . ."
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Mr. GRIFFIN. The third?
Mr. CRAFARD. "Tear it out . . ."
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the fourth?
Mr. CRAFARD. "Live notes only."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are all the tear-out tabs on what appear to be on the front cover?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is printing, and it is pretty hard to recognize it. I believe this was Jack's notebook. It is his handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe it is his handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not the notebook, is it, that you transferred entries into from your small Penway spiral notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you believe Jack carried this notebook in his pocket?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let us go through these entries and see if you recognize any of them.
Mr. CRAFARD. There are a few in there I know the names of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sandy?
Mr. CRAFARD. That has no meaning to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second entry is A. F. McKnight.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Pepper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she had been a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she employed as a stripper while you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard some talk about her?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name sounds like one of the girls I mentioned as a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Caroline Walker?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Strike that. Jack Yanover?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Caroline Walker?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Harold Tannebaum?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Margaret Caldwell?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Kirk Dial or Kirk Diaz?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say Dial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. James Herbert?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jules Herbert?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read what is written under Jules Herbert?
Mr. CRAFARD. It looks to me like "Sherry care of Lincoln-Houston." The name "Sherry," I believe she was a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Gigi?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But not employed there while you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. But not employed there while I was there. I have heard mention of the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Wally Rack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't remember the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Doctor's Club, do you know what that was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that appear to be, Linda Kubox?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say it looks like K-u-b-o-x to me.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of that person?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Betty Robbins?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Iwana Birdwell?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ferris?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Skip Hutcheson?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was some, one young fellow that Jack had staying there before I went there they referred to as Skip. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Skip Hutcheson you believe is the fellow who sort of performed the job you did before you came?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you came was Hutcheson there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it had been 2 or 3 months, I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It had been 2 or 3 months that had passed between the time----
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lynd Chenalt?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about W. O. Chenalt?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Brenda?
Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a girl named Brenda there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't remember of any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that Augie?
Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a fellow or a girl named Augie?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the name means nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John, is that Rogers?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so. It don't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Bruce?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Shirley means nothing to me, but the last name would have been Little Lynn's correct name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, her correct name was Bruce?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought her last name was Carlin?
Mr. CRAFARD. Her husband's name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bruce Carlin? Bill Willis?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name sounds familiar, but I can't put any meaning to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he play in the band?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was one of the band players.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gino Skaggs?
Mr. CRAFARD. Means nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dottie Walters?
Mr. CRAFARD. That means nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbara Brown?
Mr. CRAFARD. That means nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Palmer?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had been employed at the club. We received some letters at the club for him. That is all I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What had been his employment?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he connected with AGVA?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sandra Moran?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Kathy Kay.
Mr. CRAFARD. She was one of the strippers while I was there.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. And Andy?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be Andrew Armstrong, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Andrea Dalk?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name means nothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about this Kathy?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the name at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lorri Womack?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name doesn't mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Margaret?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is Judy Oberlin?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. George, Sherman, Tex.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Betty Kelley?
Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn't mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Eberhardt?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Russ Knight?
Mr. CRAFARD. Russ Knight--that doesn't mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Charles Senator?
Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn't mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The House of Loan?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Joe, Whitehall 2-5424?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Jeannie?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jeanine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jeanine.
Mr. CRAFARD. She worked when I first went to work for Jack, she worked as a cocktail waitress and then she also was an amateur stripper. She went to work for Jack as a stripper while I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What name did she strip under?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was under the first name of Jeanine. She used a French last name. She was of French descent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ralph Paul?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ralph Paul.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about American Airlines, and Tuesday, October 9, No. 985?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would mean nothing to me. George Senator is the next one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, we have talked about George.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Herrod?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Slayton?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was the comedian, I believe, Jack employed him for a short while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Campbell-Corrigan, building repair. Did somebody do some building repairs for him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember that. Corrigan, doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Chuck Isaacs?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I can't read this.
Mr. CRAFARD. Davis Kitter--something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitter something or other.
Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't recognize that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Earl Wilson?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything to me.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Tony Turner?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything to me either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Busch?
Mr. CRAFARD No; it doesn't mean anything to me either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Cook?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbara Hickman?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tammi True?
Mr. CRAFARD. Of course, she was one of the strippers who worked for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is Kay again, but you wouldn't know what Kay that would be?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nicki?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dolores Meridith?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wiliford Jackson?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Phil Olian?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean a thing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wendy Knight?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wanda?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Janice Anderson?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Petta?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. L. H. McIntyre?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Brown?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Carlos Camorgo, Mexico City?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything. The only thing I believe he had a stripper, pictures of a stripper, from Mexico or South America, that he had some papers from her indicating she had been there sometime in the past.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe he employed a stripper from Mexico?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was either from Mexico or South America.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago had he employed this stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know how long ago. I saw some pictures with her name on it, Spanish name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Billie?
Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn't mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Toni Rebel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about a Toni Rebel who was a stripper or a girl who went by the name of Toni Rebel on the stage.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Towney?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Affiliated Polygraph? That is a lie detector. Did you ever hear anything from Jack on that?
Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I can think of there he had a sign there on the bar that if anything come up of questionable or anything was stolen in the club or anything all of the employees would be required to take a polygraph test. I don't know whether that was Affiliated or what.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he hang this out where the patrons could see it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was hung on the front of the cash register.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of anybody being asked to take a polygraph test?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Nole?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything to me.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Margo Larve?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn't mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitty Keel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mary Martin?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail or Carol?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ethel A. Piersol?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gall Thompson?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Margie?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would have evidently been Little Marge, the one waitress.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Peggy Steele?
Mr. CRAFARD. She had been a stripper, she was a stripper who had worked there at the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. John M. Crawford?
Mr. CRAFARD. It means nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Huntsville State Penitentiary, Huntsville. Did you ever hear him talk about anybody?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Linda?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Avrum?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sherry?
Mr. CRAFARD. She had been a stripper or was a stripper that had worked for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Henry Segel?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would--Segel as it is used there wouldn't mean anything to me. But the address he has got it, Chicago, Ill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a Segel that Jack----
Mr. CRAFARD. Spelled differently than that, Segal Liquor Store is where he bought champagne and other wines.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Roy Pike?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You never knew Mickey Ryan by the name of Roy Pike?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lisa Starling?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Stewart's Photo?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Hall, Monroe, La.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Luke of the Times Herald?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. H. G. Tiger?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. E. Fletcher?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Darrell Williams?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Vivian?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Statler Barbershop.
Mr. CRAFARD. Just it was a barbershop in the Statler Hilton.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where Jack got his hair cut?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Doyle?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What we have done is gone through all of the pages 1 through
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9 of Exhibit 5203, and we have read off every name that is in there. Now, I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5204, and I have written on this, "Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5204, April 9, 1964," and I will sign this in pencil. Will you look at that? It purports to be a notebook, and on the cover is simply the word "Addresses." It consists of 20 pages and, as I say, this is a Xerox copy of the cover and those pages. Would you look at that and tell me whether you have ever seen that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this to be a copy of a notebook that Jack had, kept, in his drawer in his desk.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5204 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the notebook that you transferred items from your Penway Spiral into?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the notebook which is represented by Exhibit 5203 you believe Jack kept in his pocket?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And this notebook, which is represented by Exhibit 5204, you believe he kept in his desk?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, or he might have kept in his pocket. He kept two or three different books in his pocket at one time, but I believe that one was in his desk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he also kept on his desk a much larger Penway notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he didn't have the larger Penway notebook until----
Mr. CRAFARD. Until after I went to work for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. There was another one. The Penway notebook was about 6 inches long, and about 4 1/2 inches wide.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let us look at these names in here.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recognize any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recognize a single name? Did you know Cecil Hamlin?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the Century Distributors, Inc., are?
Mr. CRAFARD. Century Distributors, Inc.?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; what are they?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever know Jack to be interested in any prize fighters?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I knew of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of a Willie Love?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack talk of Lewis McWillie?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. L. J. McWillie?
Mr. CRAFARD I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet a fellow named Lawrence Meyers?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of Jack's friends from Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you were at the State fair ever meeting any other people with Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when the first time was that you met Joyce McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was at the fairgrounds. She came out with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet her out there; did you meet any men out there with her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't--it seems like there was a couple of men with them, but I was never introduced to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will state for the record that this notebook which we have
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consists of 20 pages and those 20 pages include the cover which is marked "Addresses," and that is page No. 1, and the remainder of the pages are numbered consecutively through 20. I might also indicate that on each page of this exhibit, with the exception of page 1 and page 20, two pages are photographed open, so that would make a total of almost 40 pages of actual written addresses. I hand you, Larry, what has been marked as Exhibit 5205, Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard, April 9, 1964," and I have put my signature on there. This is a photograph of a group of people, and there is an arrow pointing toward one of the people. First of all, can you tell us if you recognize the place in which that photograph was taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be the Carousel Club.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5205 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything about it that looks like the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. You can just see the portion of the runway across here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is in the lower left-hand corner?
Mr. CRAFARD. Lower left-hand corner of the picture, and the Carousel was the only club in Dallas to have runways, to seat the customers on runways. These gentlemen are sitting right on the runway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see anybody in that picture that you recognize?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't. I see one of the waitresses back in the background. I can't make out which one it is on the upper right-hand portion, standing holding a tray, but I can't make out who it is though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an arrow directed toward one of the individuals in that picture. Do you ever recall seeing that individual in the club before?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't. I don't recall seeing him at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that picture of yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; definitely not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say definitely not?
Mr. CRAFARD. One thing, the clothing. He is wearing a checkered shirt.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. Any time I was in the club I wore a suit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You always wore a suit?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I sometimes took my dress jacket off and put on a gold livery jacket on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever dressed in a sweater of any sort there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you wear a tie while you were in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This gentleman is wearing what would appear to be a sport shirt, and I would say he is an older gentleman than I am.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked for purposes of identification as "Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard, April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5206," and I have signed my name to it. Do you recognize the place where that photograph was taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly on the stage of the Carousel Club looking down the center runway.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5206 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see anybody in that picture that you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me; that is looking down the side runway on the left side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mr. CRAFARD. The young lady on the stage with her back to us, I believe, is the stripper known as Tammi True.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Blond hair?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is--how about the man who appears to be dressed in a tuxedo and standing on the stage; do you recognize him?
Mr. CRAFARD. He looks like the comedian known, that I can only remember the name as, Johnny. He worked with a couple of puppets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the man in the checked shirt?
63
Mr. CRAFARD. Only from the fact that it was his picture in the--his photo in the previous picture that was designated with an arrow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that an accurate, true and accurate, picture of what the inside of the Carousel looked like at the time that you worked there?
Mr. CRAFARD. From that angle; yes. If you like, I can explain what they was doing when this picture was taken.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what that depicts?
Mr. CRAFARD. It depicts the, what they call, raffling, you might say; they give tickets out at the door, and then they spin a roulette wheel, and the man with the numbers on the ticket that correspond with the ticket on the roulette wheel wins the prizes. That is what they were doing at that time; giving away prizes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they give away prizes every night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; weekends mostly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about during the week?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not too often. Sometimes they did. It depends on the size of the crowd.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did Jack get his prizes?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give away twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. He gave away twist boards, Rusty Warren records, two bottles of champagne, Wilkinson sword-edged blades, and stuffed animals.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give away all of those items every night they had a raffle or different nights?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would give whoever won their choice. They would have, give away, three prizes each night, and everyone would have their choices out of the prizes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as "C. L. Crafard, April 1964, 5207," and I have signed my name to it. That is a photograph. Can you tell me where that picture was taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was taken in Mr. Ruby's office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the arrangement of chair and desk and what appears to be a couch in the foreground the arrangement that existed at the time that you worked there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This couch here is part of a sectional that was turned crosswise of the office, the other portion being against the wall on the left-hand side of the picture, which is where you cannot see it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are the people in this photograph looking in the direction of the TV camera, I mean of the TV set?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say the woman as I am looking at the left of the picture, Joy Dale, is looking more in the direction than the rest of them, the TV set in the corner over this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a TV set as you look from Jack Ruby's position in the photograph. It would be off at the far wall in the left-hand corner?
Mr. CRAFARD. To the left of him; yes, it would be to his left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door shown behind Jack Ruby there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; that is the door connecting his office to what was my room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, in order to get into your room, you had to walk through Jack's office?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I had a door off in the hall to my room, but this was a connecting door from his office to my room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the door that enters Jack's office?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be almost immediately behind the girl on the right-band side, who is Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that door sort of opened up through the middle of the wall or at one end of the wall?
Mr. CRAFARD. More or less to the end of the wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's mark on there, then, Little Lynn on the side that she is on, and Jack Ruby in the middle; I am marking this on the back. And Joy Dale. Now, the background of this picture, there appear to be tacked up on the door a number of papers. Was that customary?
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Mr. CRAFARD. He had a lot of different papers tacked, fastened to the door there, hanging on it. He had a couple of pegs in the door he put them on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of papers did he keep there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly old bills and stuff like that that he just stuck up on kind of a wire peg that he put them on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me show you what I have marked as Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard, April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5208, and I have signed it. Was that photograph taken at the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Do you want me to describe it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; would you?
Mr. CRAFARD. It shows Jack Ruby standing on the stage holding the mike talking to the audience, and they are clapping him; applauding him, I should say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that photograph was taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the date, but this photograph would have been taken at the same time we had a photographer from a magazine taking pictures. It would have been taken by him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did Jack M.C.; appear on stage?
Mr. CRAFARD. One or two nights. I believe one evening, one or two evenings we was without an M.C. and Jack done the M.C.-ing. It was a couple of evenings.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When there was ordinarily an M.C. there, do you ever recall Jack going up on stage?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. It wasn't his custom.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Looking at that picture, do you recognize anybody else in the photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5209, and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?
First of all, let me rephrase the question. Do you recognize where that was taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't. It wasn't taken in the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recognize anybody in the picture?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I would say this picture was taken in a place where the theme was more or less western theme than anything else. I remember I commented to the other gentleman when he showed me a picture, we were looking at the costume she had on, wasn't anything I remembered.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5210. Do you recognize where that photograph was taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. This photograph was taken in the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize who any people in those photographs are?
Mr. CRAFARD. A stripper. I don't remember her name right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the left-hand side, is that the same girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. The same girl in another one of the photographs. It looks like Tammi True.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There are dogs in that--dachshund dogs in that photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. These dogs belong to Jack Ruby. We placed them on the stage as more or less the photographer was here, as more or less a photography stunt more than anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they regularly used in acts?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; only on this one occasion they were used more or less like, say, for a photographic stunt.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever been up on the stage while the lights were on, while an act was in progress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not while an act was in progress. Usually, during the roulette wheel, I would put the prizes out and I'd take them off when it was over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would the stage be lighted in the same way for the drawing of prizes as it would be when an M.C. was on stage?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would only the stage be lit or would the patrons, the customer area, also be?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the stage.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to look out into the audience from the stage when the roulette wheel, when the drawing, was in progress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see faces in the audience?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was pretty hard to make out any faces unless they were sitting right next, and then you wouldn't recognize them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Unless they were sitting right next to the runway of the stage?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were----
Mr. CRAFARD, Excuse me a minute, please.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. You can just see a gentleman standing on the right-hand corner of some of these photographs. This gentleman was the M.C. at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was Johnny. Yes; there is the box, one of his boxes. It was Johnny, but I am not sure what his last name was. There is a woman in one of these pictures; I believe I can just see myself, but it is not clear enough to make out. I believe it is me standing there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This picture that you are looking at, this large photograph, is actually a series of small photographs?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is actually a series of small photographs. It would be the first and second photograph in the middle series of photographs where you can just vaguely see me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to show you what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5211. Do you recognize any of the people in that photograph, that set of photographs?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is Johnny on the stage, the first one in the first series. I can see Johnny on the stage again.
The next one shows Johnny.
The next one shows Johnny and, I believe it is Tammi True.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the heavy man in the short-sleeved shirt that is shown?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember his name. He was to the club on several different occasions. He always sat in the same place because he was such a heavy man nobody could get around him, such a big one.
In the middle series of photographs shows Tammi True in each of them.
And on the outside series of photographs is Little Lynn in Jack's office holding some stuffed animals. The bottom picture on the right-hand series shows Johnny with one of his puppets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this about the fat man in the short sleeves. Was he a friend of Jack's?
Mr. CRAFARD. They knew each other. They seemed to be friendly, always talked, Jack would always speak to him when he came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you associate any name with this man?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't remember his name, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his name in any of the names that we went through in the notebooks today?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember. I wouldn't remember his name if I saw it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody else who would know him? Would Andy Armstrong know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy Armstrong would know him; yes. I believe that Andy is the one that first told me his name and told me to always seat him in the same place.
There was only one chair in the club that he could sit on and we had to go get it all the time when he come in and put it in the place for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5212, which is also a series of photographs.
Do you recognize any of the people in those pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. The stripper is Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In all of the pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the patrons? Do you recognize any of the patrons?
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Mr. CRAFARD. Only myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you?
Mr. CRAFARD. This doesn't look like me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is not me at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that you right there? You have indicated to me that your photograph appears in a number of these pictures.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me indicate that you are in the photograph in the upper right-hand corner, and you are the man in a black suit who is seated second from the left along the runway.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And in the picture immediately below that you occupy the same position?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The picture immediately below that which is the third from the top, on the right-hand side you occupy the same position?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the stripper is Little Lynn?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then moving into the center set of pictures you appear in the same position third from the bottom?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the same position at the bottom?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is this suit and dress that you show here, is that the way you were normally dressed at the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. These pictures were taken as a photographic stunt, also.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the day, Larry, if you had occasion to go out of the Carousel Club, were you also dressed in a suit?
Mr. CRAFARD. During the day, up until about 5 o'clock, I was normally dressed in a pair of white jeans, a long-sleeved shirt or a pair of corduroys as I was usually working around the club and I didn't care to wear a suit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5213.
Now, this picture was taken inside the Carousel Club.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you look at these picture and tell me looking at the picture in the upper left-hand corner, who that is?
Mr. CRAFARD. Johnny, the M.C. on stage with his three puppets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And in the photograph right below that there are two girls. Who is the blond?
Mr. CRAFARD. Kathy Kay and I believe Tammi True in the dressing room. The next photograph is the same.
The next photograph is Tammi True on stage. Going to the middle of the first photograph is Tammi True. The middle series is all Tammi True on stage.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the patrons in here?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't; except on the top picture on the right-hand corner shows the heavy set man we have mentioned before in the same position as before. On the right-hand column it shows Kathy Kay on the top photo. The next three photos are all pictures of Johnny with his puppets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that Johnny, would his name be Johnny Turner?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he the only M.C., the only man who was employed at the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was the only M.C. employed at that time; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the only other employees he had at that particular time were strippers or entertainers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; strippers and the waitresses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So let me understand this. That while you were there, Billy DeMar was employed there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Johnny Turner?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And anyone else?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was all. I can't remember who the M.C. was when I first went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a different one other than the three we have mentioned?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. That is what I was trying to remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did these M.C.'s have a regular run of a prescribed number of weeks that they would play?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; maybe they might come in for 2 or 3 weeks, or they might be there for 1 week and then they might stay for 3 or 4 months. It would depend on the contract that they signed with Mr. Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Buddy Heard ever come and appear?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe he was ever there while I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit 5214 and I want to ask you if you recognize any of the patrons in those photographs.
Mr. CRAFARD. The heavy set gentleman that has been mentioned before is in the second photograph in the left-hand series. He is in the first photograph in the middle series, That is all. But other than that, I don't recognize any of the other patrons.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you now what has been marked as 5214-A and all the markings are in the same fashion as the previous ones. Do you recognize any of the patrons in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. The patron in the second and third photographs on the right-hand side looks familiar but I can't place him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am handing you is Exhibit 5215 which is also marked in the same fashion as the others. Do you recognize any of the patrons there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I show you Exhibit 5216. You will notice that this appears to be the interior of a dressing room and there is some sort of a plaque on the wall in the top two photographs in the center and the photograph in the lower righthand corner. Do you recall what that plaque is?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't,
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you state whether that picture was taken at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recognize those as Carousel Club dressing rooms?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes. The dressing rooms have been redecorated since I worked there, I know that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the dressing rooms look as they appear in that photograph at any time while you were employed at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe that is the dressing room of the Carousel. I don't remember this stuff along the bottom picture, the left-hand side of the bottom picture in the left-hand column. The plywood door that is shown in several pictures, I don't recognize that as being of the dressing room at the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same fashion as Exhibit 5217. Do you recognize the patron that is shown in that photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't, but I believe from this picture I can pretty well state that that other last picture was photographs of the girls' dressing room, from the location of the table. Instead of a door that was a window that had been boarded up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I show you Exhibit 5218 which has been marked in the same fashion. Do you recognize any of the patrons in that photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Exhibit 5219 which has been marked in the same fashion? Do you recognize any of those patrons?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only that I believe this one has been showed in previous pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a duplicate of something we already have?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe it is a duplicate, but I believe this gentleman in the white shirt has been shown in previous pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about 5220? Do you recognize any of the patrons there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only this one gentleman here, I can make him out especially in the bottom picture in the middle column.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With the white shirt on?
Mr. CRAFARD. The gentleman with the short-sleeved white shirt on I can recognize him from the previous pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't have a recollection of who he is?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't have a recollection of who he is. I don't think I ever, knew the gentleman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Exhibit 5221, do you recognize any of the patrons in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only the gentleman on the right-hand would be the back down in the picture towards the right-hand side would be the far side of the stage the heavy set gentlemen that has been mentioned before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Officer Tippit?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever know a man named Bernard Weissman?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Ruby or anybody indicate that Officer Tippit was ever in the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember of hearing any indication.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about that Bernard Weissman? Was he in the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember any indication of that, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever owned a gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had a pistol, but it was in Oregon when I was in Texas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a pistol was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. A .22.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever owned any other sort of a gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were in military service, did you have any training with a rifle?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had training with the M-1 rifle and with the M-1 carbine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were in Dallas, Tex., did you ever have any occasion to go out to any rifle ranges?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know whether Jack Ruby ever went to any rifle ranges?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your answer is you don't know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I did not know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in Dallas, Tex., did you attempt to purchase an automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit any used car lots?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever drive Jack Ruby's car?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive an automobile at any time while you were in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever accompany anybody in an automobile to have it repaired?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I believe when you talked with the FBI, you indicated that you visited a store with Jack where he was going to get some electrical or electronic equipment.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you began to work for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was about 3 or 4 weeks after I went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talk about working for Jack, do you mean that to include the time that you were working at the Dallas, Tex., State Fair?
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Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As working for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only the time, from the time the State fair closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what kind of electrical equipment Jack was purchasing, looking for when you went with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Some speakers and--that is the boxes that are used to work a speaker out of, the amplifier box.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he going to use these items?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he had those items there before?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had the items in the Carousel Club, but he was going to replace them with some better models.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were his exiting models defective in any way?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was always something going wrong with one speaker or the other.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually replace these?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not while I was there; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened at the electronics store that you visited?
Mr. CRAFARD. He talked with the gentleman for a few minutes and I believe he give them a free pass to the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do in connection with buying equipment?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had choked out some equipment they had there, their prices, the types of equipment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What price range of equipment was he talking about?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was wanting to get a better model amplifier as cheaply as he could.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have been an expenditure of over $100?
Mr. CRAFARD. I really don't know, but I don't believe so. Could I go back a little bit to the day. I believe that was about a week after I went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you testified yesterday I think that the girl whom you identified in some pictures taken on the street outside the Carousel with Jack Ruby, you identified this girl as Gloria McDonald.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could her name have been Gloria Fillmore?
Mr. CRAFARD. Her name could have been, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure about the name McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. In fact if I may be allowed to say so, I am not positive that this girl is the girl I knew as Gloria. Her name could have been something entirely different. I believe it was Gloria.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe it was Gloria in this picture?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you are not completely positive.
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I never knew her last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to refresh your recollection a little bit. Going back to Wednesday, November 20, 2 days before the President was killed, and Thursday, November 21, do you remember on either of those 2 days receiving any telephone calls from Bruce Carlin?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Bruce called the evening of Wednesday, the 20th wanting to speak to Little Lynn. I am not positive but I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how about on the 21st. Do you remember anything on the 21st?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall anything, no. He might have but I don't recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever remember on the 21st a telephone call being placed to Jack Ruby in the early portion of the evening, and your answering the phone and talking to the person on the phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember it, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce Carlin ever have occasion to call Jack Ruby in your recollection?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember him ever doing so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of Bruce Carlin's friends?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet a boy named Jerry Bunker?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember it, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce used to call the Carousel regularly?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. There was only one or two occasions when I am sure that Bruce called the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When are the other occasions?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the evening of Wednesday the 20th Little Lynn hadn't went straight home from the club and he called asking, wanting to know where she was at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any idea of the financial condition of Little Lynn or Bruce Carlin the week before the President died?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn ever complain in your presence about not having enough money?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that when she first went to work for Jack, Jack either gave her an advance or loaned her some money, one or the other.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I recall yesterday in your talking with Mr. Hubert there was some problem you felt that you had lost 8 hours in describing what happened on your trip from Dallas to your destination in Michigan.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the time that has passed since then, have you been able to find those 8 hours that were lost?
Mr. CRAFARD. Pretty well, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. I got mixed up on my routes in Oklahoma City and spent quite a bit of time getting back. There is where I lost the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you arrive in Oklahoma City?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 7 o'clock in the evening of the 23d.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did you happen to get mixed up on your routes?
Mr. CRAFARD. I got a ride with this gentleman and I believe he said something about getting me out on my route or something like that, and I got mixed up on my route.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ride with him in the wrong direction for a while?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took me out, he took me quite a ways more than where I had to go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On that basis what time would you say that you arrived in Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. It probably would put me in Chicago sometime Monday, about 10:30 or 11 o'clock in the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago, then you knew that Ruby had killed Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you arrive in Lansing, Mich.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 6:30 or 7 o'clock Monday evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago did you make any effort to call any of the Rubensteins?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did that occur to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that arrival in Lansing would have been about 3:30 or 4 o'clock. It would have been a couple hours earlier.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that the ride that you had got out of Dallas on the 23d with a man whom you had met at the Dallas State Fair.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do at the Dallas State Fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a photography place on the fairgrounds. He worked there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a full-time employee at the fairgrounds or was this a temporary thing?
Mr. CRAFARD I believe this was just temporary for the fair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the photography place?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember that, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a number of different photographers at the fair?
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Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two or three different ones at the fairgrounds. This one was right close to the place I worked was located.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far would it have been from a tent? Were you in a tent?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far would it have been from your tent?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 150 or 200 feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In which direction?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been down on the main midway. It would have been right on a corner of the main midway and the portion of the midway I was on. We were located on a branch off the main midway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old would you say this man was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say he was probably in at least his middle forties, more likely in his late forties.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he bald or did he have hair?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't really remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a graying man or what color was his hair?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember that either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he wore glasses?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what kind of a car he owned?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had a Chevy. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe his physical build, anything remarkable about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I could think of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a thin man?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was about medium build for a man his age and height.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say he had a young boy with, him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he had a son about I believe 9 or 10 years old.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you catch the son's name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his name? Did you learn his first name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I more than likely knew his name but I don't remember it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do at the photography studio?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know for sure just what he did do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a Dallas studio that had a place there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there some central office of the Dallas State Fair that would keep records of the people who had charge of tents or booths there?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be the fair commission would know anyone that had any kind of a stand or concession on the midway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where would this commission have its office when the season was not in session?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be on the fairgrounds. I am not sure where though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is some sort of permanent office there on the fairgrounds?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the Dallas Fairgrounds is one of the largest fairgrounds in Texas. It is open the year around.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your belief that this man knew you worked for Jack Ruby as he was taking you out of Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not until after we had got to talking and I told him I had been working at the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you estimate that you were with that man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, maybe a half hour or maybe 45 minutes at the most.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is your belief that he had a cottage at some sort of a lake?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What place?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't remember the name of the lake he lived on, that he had his cottage on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you remember somewhat where he left you off and in what direction he had to turn?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went to the left of 77 when he let me off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You left Dallas on route 77?
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Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far would you say you went on route 77?
Mr. CRAFARD. We were about 20 miles outside the city limits of Dallas at Carrollton, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He let you off in Carrollton?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the other side of Carrollton a little ways.
Mr. GRIFFIN. North of Carrollton?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just north. Not very far. It couldn't have been more than maybe a mile.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this some sort of main intersection he let you off
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes; the main entry for the Carrollton traffic on the north side of town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at route 77 and the corner of some other road
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just one of the so-called farm roads of Texas. They have got a lot of the roads numbered farm road such and such.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a sign up there that pointed to a lake that this man had to turn to?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any idea how large a lake it was? Was it a resort area?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recall that either, sir. I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you do recall that the man had a cottage or something of that sort on the lake?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was going up to work on his cottage when he picked me up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We talked at lunchtime about a man who called the Carousel during the week before the President was assassinated.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And would you tell us about these calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. Is that the one where I said he wouldn't give his name or anything?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the one I had in mind.
Mr. CRAFARD. This gentleman would call maybe two or three times a day asking for Jack. He would ask where he could reach Jack. It sounded like it was pretty important that he reach Jack, and that he would never leave a number where Jack could call him back at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever give this man a number?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time of the day or night this man would call?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would usually be during the day. I can't recall any specific time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man ever wake you up?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was always well after 9 o'clock, I know that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it ever appear to be around lunch hour?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been anywhere from 9 o'clock to 6 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he seem to call at regular times when he called?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe his voice in terms of age?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I couldn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man call on Friday, November 22?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't really remember whether he did or not. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about on the morning of the 23d, Saturday the 23d?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call the day before the President was assassinated?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he called sometime in the afternoon of the 21st.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Andy Armstrong about this man?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to Jack about him and I believe Andy was there when I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you say to Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. That this guy called several times wanting to get a hold of him, would never leave his name or address or number or anything.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had told me previously not to give his number to anyone unless I knew who it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is his home number?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, or some other number he left where he could be reached at. He said not to worry about anybody that didn't leave a phone number, they didn't want to get in touch with him very bad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he knew who this man was who was calling?
Mr. CRAFARD. I took it for granted he knew who the man was. He never said definitely that he did know who the man was. I think when I told him about it he just said forget it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You never met this man, did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; if I had met the man I would have known his voice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many home telephone numbers did Jack have?
Mr. CRAFARD. He only had one home number that I knew of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have an assistant manager by the name of Alexander?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would have been Andrew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can finish a good part of this today if we could take a break. I want to hand you a copy of your interview with the FBI and ask you to take time to read that over. It is rather lengthy. It covers eight pages. Make some notes. Let me put this on the record. Let me ask you to take your time and read this, and we will take a recess for as long a period as you feel necessary. Make notes as you go along of any changes that you think ought to be made, either because you didn't tell that to the FBI or because you now upon reflection think that it is inaccurate, or because after reading this and reflecting on your other testimony you would adopt this rather that what you have said before. Let's figure this will take at least 15 minutes and maybe longer.
TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED
The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 10, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, and Max Phillips, Secret Service, were present.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state first for the record that this is a continuation of the deposition that was begun on Wednesday morning, April 8, with Mr. Crafard, and that the oath and all the formalities that we went through on that date are still in effect. Yesterday afternoon as Mr. Crafard and I were returning from lunch, he indicated to me that he had received some telephone calls at the Carousel Club in the week before President Kennedy was killed, from a man who would call two or three, perhaps more times a day but would not leave his name but simply ask for Jack Ruby, and in connection with that conversation Mr. Crafard asked me if we had any recordings of Lee Oswald's voice. Mr. Crafard indicated that he would like to listen to the recordings with the possibility that he might recognize the voice of somebody he had talked to or overheard when he was in Ruby's employ. We have located a tape recording of an interview which was conducted with Mr. Oswald in New Orleans shortly after he was arrested for disturbing the peace in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba activities. The tape recording was made by radio station WDSU, New Orleans on August 21, 1963. The recording involves Lee Harvey Oswald, Carlos Bringuier, Ed Butler, and Bill Stuckey. The recording is provided to us by the United States Secret Service. It bears Secret Service No. 236.
I would also like to explain for Mr. Crafard's benefit as well as the rest of us that it will be very clear as you listen to this tape recording which person on the recording is Lee Oswald. In some cases his name may be used. In other cases the question and answer repartee is such that it will be difficult not to realize who Oswald is if you know anything about Oswald's background.
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There also may be a certain amount of distortion in the recording and we are not able to state for the record at this time exactly how much distortion there is and how this would compare favorably with what might heard over a telephone. I would like you to keep all of this in mind in listening to this and try to give us as accurate a recollection as you can of whether you have ever heard this voice which will appear to be Oswald's. Mr. Hubert, do you have anything you want to add?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is just another way of putting what Mr. Griffin has said, we don't want you to identify a voice simply because it is suggested to you by the content of the material. If that would be the basis of your recollection of your recognition it would be of no value to us, you see. On the other hand, if you do recognize the voice we expect you to tell us.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Goldberg, do you have anything you would like to ask?
Dr. GOLDBERG. No; I have no questions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Phillips, if you would go ahead and commence the recording we will all listen to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, you are going to be able to tell us after we finish playing that at what point you began and at what point you ended?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Might I ask the reporter if it is possible for him to take down the first couple of sentences so we will have for the record----
Mr. HUBERT. I don't think it will be necessary if we can get into the record its being at such a point in feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you indicate to use what the footage is?
Mr. PHILLIPS. I have the index at zero right now with the paper index in the reel. When it is through I will be able to know how much, what the index reads and I will have a paper index in the other roll and that space in between is what we have played. I will identify that section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. May I suggest, though, Mr. Hubert that if there is any possibility that portions of this tape might be deleted or retranscribed onto another tape that it would probably be best if we did have an indication of the opening words that are on here so that it can be located?
Mr. HUBERT. That is an extra precaution.
(The tape recording commenced with the following):
"What price in dollars of Cuba selling sugar to Russia, Russia sending to Cuba 80 percent in machinery in Russia and 20 percent in dollars," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera----
(This is a Cuban or Spanish speaking voice.)
"Could you straighten out that point, are you or have you been a Communist?"
"Yes; I am a Marxist.
"What is the difference.
"Well, the difference is primarily the difference between a country like Ghana, Guiana, Yugoslavia, China, or Russia."
(End of transcription.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us now, Mr. Crafard, whether after listening to this recording you recognize any of the voices on the recording?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, I want the record to show where you began and where you left off and we have the double check with the opening sentences of the excerpt and the closing sentences so that we may have a mechanical check as well, would you state for the record precisely how this can be identified at a later point in time.
Mr. PHILLIPS. This section of the tape can be identified by paper index tabs which have been inserted. Secondly, the index numerical index reads 163 on this stereophonic concord tape recorder. The numerical index reads 163 which means from the time the tape was played which was on zero index, the tape distance went 163 inches.
Mr. HUBERT. Those paper tabs are temporary, aren't they?
Mr. PHILLIPS. That is correct.
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Mr. HUBERT. Is there a possibility of marking the tape in some way without injuring it?
Mr. PHILLIPS. There would be.
Mr. HUBERT. So that there would be a permanent mark as to where the paper tabs were?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you do that by making some sort of significant mark with your initials?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. We will ask you to do that also.
Mr. PHILLIPS. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, did you recognize anyone of the voices in that excerpt that we played?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard them at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are certain that it is not the voice of the man who called Ruby that you referred to yesterday?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that now?
Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday I understand that you referred to the fact that a man had called Ruby by telephone on a sufficient number of occasions so that you believe that you could recognize his voice if you heard it again.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will ask you if any of the voices that you heard in this excerpt just run off on the machine is the voice of the man you were talking about?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, having had a chance to listen to a number of voices on the tape recording is there anything you can tell us about the voice of the man who called you without leaving his name that Mr. Hubert has been referring to. Did he have an accent?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he didn't have an accent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he speak with any characteristic Texan or southern speech patterns?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; his voice sounded more like a person from the East would talk. His words were very pronounced and very definite.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is one photograph that I neglected to show you yesterday which I want to show you now and ask you to identify.
I am going to mark this Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5222.
(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5222 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at that photograph and tell me if that is a photograph of anyone you have ever seen before?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I have saw the gentleman before at the club but I don't believe I was ever introduced to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in what connection you saw him in the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a guest of Mr. Ruby's.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when you may have seen him there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Exhibit 5223 which is a photograph of a piece of paper and it bears the name T. E. Smith, and there is some other writing under it. Do you recognize that name on that sheet of paper?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This exhibit is marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard Exhibit 5223 and it bears on the back the numeral one.
(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5223 and 5224--A for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-A and I will ask you if you will tell us what those are a picture of.
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Mr. CRAFARD. They are pictures of a message, I would say that--there is space for who the message is to, the date, who it is by, and when they were there and the phone numbers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there three message slips photographed in that picture?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you ever recall seeing those around, such message slips around, the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall seeing those in any connection with Mr. Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on there. Do you recognize any of the names on those sheets of paper?
Mr. CRAFARD. None other than the name Ruby here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether Mr. Ruby received telephone calls regularly at any phone other than the phone at the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He might at his home address. I wouldn't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at what I have marked in the same fashion as Exhibit 5224-B and tell me if you recognize any of the names that are shown in that photograph?
(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5224--B for identification.)
Mr. CRAFARD. The middle one in the picture bears the name Pauline which is the name of the assistant manager of the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there was somebody who stayed throughout the day at the Vegas Club in the same manner that you stayed throughout the day at the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe there was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you a series of photographs all of which are marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964 and which I am going to mark Exhibit 5225. Each of these 19 photographs has in the upper right-hand corner on the reverse side of the photograph a letter in sequence from A to S. I would like you to look at all 19 of these photographs and tell me if you recognize the notebook which they purport to depict.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe these to be a notebook that Jack Ruby used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you recall seeing that notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he carried it on his person.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday you identified two other notebooks one which you thought he kept on his person, the other which you thought he kept in his desk.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Having seen this is there would you change your testimony any way about the other two notebooks that you identified yesterday?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your testimony that Jack maintained at least three small-sized notebooks that you recall?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had several of them, two or three of which he carried on him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to state for the record that these photographs do not have the normal commission number that is put on documents when they come into the office. These photographs at this time have come to us by a letter from the Federal Bureau of Investigation dated April 7, and the letter indicates that this notebook was found in Jack Ruby's automobile.
I will identify this notebook further as having on the front cover the word "Alladin". The notebook appears to be a pocket-size notebook which might be 2 by 3 inches or 1 1/2 by 3 inches.
Under the word "Alladin" there is a triangle with some writing which I am unable to read. Under the triangle on the cover is written notebook No. 3164.
Mr. HUBERT. You had better identify that picture you hold in your hand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The picture I am referring to here is Exhibit 5225-A. The one refers to the number that the Bureau has put on in the upper right-hand corner on the reverse side. I am going to ask you to look at these photographs in
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sequence if you will look at Exhibit 5225-B, will you tell me whether you recognize any of the names written on there?
(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5225-A through 5225-S for identification. )
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline is on this page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Milt Jaffe?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the name Bonnie also appears on this, that would be the last name on this page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. State what you understand--you are looking through a magnifying glass now at photograph number one in the series of Exhibits 5225 and there is a name on there that you believe to be Bonnie?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that as I look at it it appears to be Barney, but assuming that it is Bonnie, that is-- is that name familiar with you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Bonnie, a girl was--a girl by the name of Bonnie worked as a waitress at the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names on that page?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline mentioned before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Correction for the record, we are looking at photograph B in the 5225 series.
Would you look at photograph C in that series and tell me if you recognize any of the names on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. This photograph doesn't contain any names. It has something to do with taxes, admission tax.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what Jack Ruby's practice was while you worked with him as to keeping track of taxes and so forth?
Mr. CRAFARD. On this admission tax we had some numbered tickets. When each customer came in we tore one in half, tore half of the tickets and gave them half of the ticket and once a month they would go at it and count the tickets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where he kept his records for those things?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know where he kept his records at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his making entries in a small notebook for such records?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not on the admission tickets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some sort of other book that he kept his tax records in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe his accountant kept most of the tax records but there was something about the admission tax where him, Ruby and Andy would work on that together and count the stubs.
But I don't know where he kept record of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the admission charge to the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it----
Mr. CRAFARD. This was including the taxes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that $2 every night or was there a different charge on weekends?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars every night at the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his charge for admission at the Vegas, if there was any?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was 75 cents or 85 cents, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph D?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is another State admission tax note. July, August, and September.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Exhibit D of Series 5225.
I want to show you E of Exhibit 5225. There are some names written down there.
Do you recognize those names?
Mr. CRAFARD. Billy Brook, I have heard his name mentioned, I believe he was a comedian; I am not sure.
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There is Bobby Patterson. I have mentioned him as a band member for the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a notation under the name Bobby Patterson. Would you read that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right under the name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. I can't make it out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To the right of the name there is a 6 with two zeros, and right under the name Bobby Patterson it says, "and friends" and on the same line to the right of the words "and friends" and under the 600 it says "10" with two zeros.
Do you recognize does that mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that handwriting that is shown there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I'm not positive, but I believe it is in Mr. Ruby's handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the way Mr. Ruby made notations about money?
Mr. CRAFARD. This is his method of making notations with the 10 large and two zeros small on the upper portion of the line.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else about that writing which makes you think that is Jack Ruby's writing?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that it is fairly small. And there is the name Armstrong, the next name that I recognize, Andrew Armstrong. That is all there is on that page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph F and tell us if you recognize anything on that photograph. This is of Exhibit 5225.
Mr. CRAFARD. What I recognize is really small writing down almost to the bottom of the page, there are three lines right close together. The names and phone numbers, the name Ruth Shay, I have heard the name, I can't recall exactly what her relation was, and the name Pauline again and then Tex De Lacy, I believe I had his name and phone number wrote down in my notebook.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph G and tell us if you recognize any of the names there or any of the notations that are on there.
Mr. CRAFARD. Other than the fact that it is apparently for excise tax purposes for the Carousel Club, that is all I can say about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph H. Do you recognize any of the names or notations on that photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. This shows two pages and one page is excise tax for Carousel Club. The other page has very little writing on it.
The name Joseph Rossi. I have heard Jack use the name Rossi quite a few times, but I don't know what it was about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Joseph R-o-s-s-i?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph I in this series that we have been looking at and tell me if you recognize any of the names and notations there.
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Tom Palmer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You already testified about him.
Mr. CRAFARD. I already testified about Palmer and the other page has the words revenue from the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph J and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there.
Mr. CRAFARD. There is one name on here, I believe I heard Jack mention, but I am not sure. This Rocky Robinson, I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection as to the context or connection that you may have heard that name used?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he introduced me to a man named Rocky, but I can't recall the last name of the gentleman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph K and would you tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?
Mr. CRAFARD. None except for the insignia of KLIF Station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the Serv-U Pharmacy as being a business in Dallas?
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Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph L and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?
Mr. CRAFARD. This is a repetition.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a duplicate photograph of the same picture that we showed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As 5225-K.
Would you look at M in this series of photographs and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is the name Jeanine, Tammi, Lynn that I recognize, Brother Bear.
The name Norma, I believe is the same phone number as I give for Miss Norma Bennett, or Barnett.
I believe there is a Bob Litchfield, I believe that is the last name on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are all names that you testified about previously?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. I am not sure about that Litchfield.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Bertha Cheek that appears on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at N in this series of photographs and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph O in the series and address yourself to the same questions?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't recognize any that is on here. There appears to be the word "taxes".
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you look at P and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is the words Morning News, Carousel rent and something about the laminating company.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do those--can you tell whose handwriting those notations are in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they are in Jack's handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack Ruby's practice to make notes for himself of things he had to do any particular day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know for sure whether he did or not. On one or two occasions I have saw him make notes of things he wanted to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at Exhibit Q and tell us if you recognize any of the names or notations there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mike Shore.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified about him previously.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
There is Ed Pullman's name on there. I have testified about him previously.
And Joe Willlares, I believe from the band at the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention back again to photograph P in this series, Exhibit 5225. There is a notation on here "baby bottle." Do you have any idea what Jack Ruby would have had to do with any baby bottles?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't, whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Exhibit Q in this series, 5225, there is a notation "Goodwill Industries". Did Jack---do you remember having anything to do with Goodwill Industries?
Mr. CRAFARD. Except the fact that most of my clothes were bought there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The name Dalton appears in connection with that.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he spoke with Mr. Dalton in connection with trying to get the Goodwill Industries interested in the twist boards, their manufacture, I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is also a notation after the word "Mike Shore" appears to be the word "blades". Did Mike Shore have anything to do with the Wilkinson blades that Jack gave away?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of; not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is also a notation on here that appears to read "Stubbe Machine", some sort of machine that looks like Stubby.
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Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I could say with that it might be in connection with the laminating machine that he was thinking about getting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, tell us about the laminating machine that he was thinking about getting.
Mr. CRAFARD. These free passes he was giving out he was having them laminated in plastic and he was thinking about getting a machine to do it himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he intending to purchase this machine?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. These were free passes to the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the practice of giving passes away to the Carousel exist all the time you worked for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. He started that practice just after I went to work for him, giving them to people that he had business with, personal acquaintances, and different important businessmen from different areas of the country.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Andy Armstrong or Jack so that you would be able to state whether he had given away passes prior to that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my--as far as I know, he had never given them away before this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Monte that appears on this photograph Q in the 5225 series?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of a fellow by the name of Monte Timmons?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe I ever met the man. I don't remember the name. Excuse me 1 minute.
I believe that is a woman's name. There was a woman by the name of Monte, had a phone call, had Ryan call her back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to show you photograph R and ask you if you recognize any of the names or notations there.
Mr. CRAFARD. Bill Petty's name is on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a friend of Jack's. I met him at the Carousel Club. Jack introduced me to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he live in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what he did? How often did you meet him at the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was there two or three times while I was working for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he come during business hours or would he come in the afternoon, or morning, when there weren't patrons there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe when I first met him was in the afternoon, but other than that it was during business hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the nature of Jack's connection with Petty was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
There is the name Gladys. I spoke of her before.
And this Dr. Uhlevitch was Mrs. Grant's doctor.
The name Oscar Newman seems familiar, but I don't recollect what there was about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There appears to be an abbreviation for Mrs. written above Oscar Newman, does that mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you photograph S in this series we have been looking at. Do you recognize any of the names there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Little Lynn's name is on there.
There is the name Gloria with the last name of R-e-t-t-i-g, the last name doesn't mean anything to me. The first name was the same as we have mentioned before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Vicky Williams a name that you recognize?
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Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday I gave you a copy of the FBI report of its interview with you. Did you have a chance to look that over?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As a result of having read that interview, are there any changes or corrections that you desire to make in that interview?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly were minor changes. One was the spelling of my wife's maiden name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How should that be spelled?
Mr. CRAFARD. It should be spelled with a "P" instead of an "O" there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take my pen and correct that and then initial it and date it where it appears in the interview?
I am going to mark this exhibit, "Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964. C.L. Crafard, Exhibit 5226," and I am going to sign my name to the bottom of the first page.
(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5226, for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I have made this notation on the first page of what purports to be an FBI report of an interview with Mr. Crafard, the interview having been conducted on November 28, 1963, at Bellaire, Mich., by Special Agent Theodore S. Kramer, K-r- a-m-e-r, dictated November 29, 1963.
There are eight pages to this report and at the bottom of each page there is a number beginning in sequence with the number 147 and continuing through the number 154 on the last page.
I am going to put my own initials on pages 148 through 154.
You have made your first correction of the name of your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the first page of this Exhibit 5226?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, are there any other changes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, the date of our wedding instead of the 16th of June was the 22d of June.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are correcting that in the same fashion that you made of the other correction?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. The fact he stated here almost every hour Ruby was asking about calls. Called between one and three times a day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's make a correction on there, then, if this is agreeable to you the sentence reads, "other than that Ruby would telephone I call, I contact him almost every hour for any calls."
After the word "contact him" why don't you cross out the remainder of the sentence and then make a correction in your handwriting.
Mr. CRAFARD. "almost every hour."
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are crossing out "almost every hour" and you are going to write something in there.
He has written on here "one or two times" but he spelled day "b-a-y" and he has put his initials CLC with the date 4-10-64. He has crossed out the words "almost every hour."
Are there any other additions or corrections?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were a couple of small minor changes in there. This about Ruby kept the revolver when he had money. There was only one occasion when he would take the revolver from the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Well, we will have to change that, then.
Mr. CRAFARD. With this, I can go back and name the one MC I have mentioned and I couldn't think of his name, Bill Norman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have referred to this sentence: "He said that when transporting money Ruby kept his money in the trunk with the revolver and always kept the revolver with him when moving money."
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to cross out everything after the phrase "with the revolver"?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you want to add anything, state something to the effect
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that, as you have just told me that on one occasion you recall him having the revolver with him.
Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion I know of him having the revolver with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the correction you have made on the paper.
Let me ask you a few questions here, Larry.
Is the one occasion that you are referring to the time when he asked you to go down and get the revolver for him, or are you talking about another occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was one other occasion when he brought the revolver into the club and' it stayed there all evening, when he stayed in the club, and when he left he took the revolver with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was about a week and a half before the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember that episode?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was trying to remember as much as I can about it, and I remember taking the revolver to him helped me remember the fact that he had it on one occasion with him in the club before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that he did or said which gave you any indication of why he had the revolver with him in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I believe he had money in the same sack with the revolver, and he just brought it in all together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe in the club at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; but he didn't use it very often. I believe he had it. I believe he had it at that time; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified before that it was Jack's practice either at the end of every business day or the next day to pick the money up and take it away from the club.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many occasions would you say you were present when Jack, when you saw Jack take money away from the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say almost every time that he took money from the club I was present.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And on any of these occasions other than the one you have just described, do you recall his having a gun on his person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him take the money and actually put it in his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would he put the money in his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position where you could observe him put the money into the trunk?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe him take anything out of the trunk on those occasions?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position so you could have seen him if he took a gun out of the trunk and carried it with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I was usually right beside him placing something in the car, myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you then on these occasions accompany Jack any place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Once or twice, but usually Just put stuff in the car for him and went back upstairs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you would leave Jack on any of these occasions, did he have other people with him, who drove off with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. One or two times; yes. A couple of times he had Mr. Ralph Paul with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many occasions would you say you went down with him to the car when he carried money down, put the money in the trunk, and Jack drove off then alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say most of the time when I went down with him he drove off alone.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us what your best estimate is of the number of times this would have been when he drove off alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say about eight or nine times that I am definite.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times a day did you have occasion to go into the trunk of Jack's automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe it would be 2 or 3 days I wouldn't go near his automobile, and there might be a day when I would go get something out of the trunk of his car two or three different times during the day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On occasions when you went down to the trunk of his car was Jack carrying money around in the trunk of his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He most always had money in the trunk of his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know this?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had told me so on several occasions, and on several occasions I was with him when he placed money in his car when I went upstairs and then he would send me down after something out of the trunk of his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether, after Jack would carry the daily receipts down to the car if he would continue to carry money in his car, in the trunk of his car, or whether he would take the money out so that the next day when he would come back and pick up the next day's receipts the trunk was empty so far as money was concerned?
Mr. CRAFARD He carried the money for the receipts for a week at a time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On these occasions when he carried the money for a week at a time, do you ever recall him going into the trunk and putting the gun in his pocket as he was driving off?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Only one time that I can recall a gun being in the car, I was in the car with Jack, I believe it was the second night I was at the Vegas Club, he brought the money sack in and the money sack that the gun was in, was in the main money sack, and we put it in the front seat of the car between us, right by my side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack's practice to keep a key to the trunk of the car any place in the automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. Other than on his key ring, I wouldn't know of any keys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many occasions did you have to go down to Jack's automobile by yourself and open the trunk of the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I would say between 15 or 20 or 25 times while I was with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And on each of these occasions did you have to get a key to open the trunk?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would give me the key, he would give me his key ring with the key on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there ever any occasions when Jack left the trunk unlocked that you recall?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. The trunk on his car was the type that you have got to unlock it to open it, and when you close it it automatically locks, and you remove the key and it automatically locks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a regular parking space for his car near the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; in the parking garage right downstairs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen where he parked his car at his home?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw the parking lot. I don't know whether he used the same space all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it an open parking lot?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack had any sort of a safe in this apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is, you don't know.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask along this line?
Mr. HUBERT. You were talking about the trunk and the money and all that. Did you get into the record about where the gun was?
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Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe we did, but why don't you ask the questions?
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn't clear to me, perhaps I didn't catch it, as to whether or not Jack kept the gun in the trunk of the car or on his person.
Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk of the car, he kept it in a money sack in the trunk of the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe your testimony was that, so that Mr. Hubert can be brought up to date, that you only ever saw him carry the gun on his person on two occasions, one of those occasions being when you brought the gun up to him at the club in connection with some sort of an argument that he had, and the other one was when he brought it in a money bag on one occasion.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that your testimony a few moments ago concerning the money and how you saw him put money in there, sometimes you carried it down, or at least saw it there, is that when there was money there there was a gun with the money, usually in a sack with the money?
Mr. CRAFARD. The money was usually in a different, separate sack from the gun, but at times he would take the sacks, on these two occasions that I know of, he took the sack the money was in, the sack the gun was in and put them all in a larger sack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him to own a holster?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. To hold a gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that he did have the gun on his person, how did he have it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was inside of a money sack, and he carried it in his hands, the money sack wrapped around the gun and laying in his hand.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the two occasions that you say he had it on his person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him put it in his pocket or his waistbelt?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard from Jack or Andy Armstrong or anybody else that Jack had ever been robbed or burglarized?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on with your copy of the FBI interview report, are there any other corrections or additions or changes that you would make?
Mr. CRAFARD. One addition I would like to make to my testimony of the fact that when Ruby first came to the club on the day that President Kennedy was killed, and before he left he called the paper and placed an ad to the effect that we would be closed, from the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are reading this out of what is page 150?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of your interview report?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to read this interview report, and does this refresh your recollection?
Mr. CRAFARD Yes. After reading it yesterday evening, and thinking about the whole thing yesterday, last night at the hotel, I have refreshed my memory to some extent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After having refreshed your recollection with this report, are you able to state how soon after Ruby came into the club he told Andy Armstrong to notify the personnel?
Mr. CRAFARD. It wasn't more than about a half hour or 45 minutes after he came into the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he didn't do it right away?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You people sat around for awhile?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss as you were sitting there the question of closing the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe we did.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how Jack came to give these instructions to Andy?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after Andy began to call the personnel do you remember Jack calling the newspapers and changing the ad?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just shortly after Andy started calling personnel and Jack went in and used the pay phone and said something about calling the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall if up to that time Jack had received a telephone call from any newspaper person asking him if his clubs were going to be open?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other additions or changes or corrections that you would make in this interview report in your testimony as a result of having read the interview report?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe yesterday I was talking about the financial setup of the club. I believe I said it was fairly good. I would say that this portion of my statement here referring to the financial setup was gained from the fact that Jack was always complaining about going broke, and a portion in my testimony the other day about the financial position of the club was my own opinion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are referring to page 150 of the interview report?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And as I understand what you are saying in here was that when you told the FBI that the club couldn't financially stand to be closed, you were making that statement on the basis of what Jack had said?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But your own personal opinion was?
Mr. CRAFARD. That the club was making enough money to hold its own, even on a closure of 2 or 3 or maybe 4 days.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to make a change on page 150 so that--well, maybe we shouldn't make this change. There is no question in your mind but that the FBI interview states, is an accurate reporting of what you said at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there is no question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, passing on to page 151, is there anything there that you would change?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact here that Ruby said he was going to his sister at that time. I don't believe he at that time mentioned where he was going. When he returned later in the evening he mentioned where he was going.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the language at the top of page 151 which says, "Ruby said that he was going to his sister's home and asked Crafard if he desired to accompany him, which offer was refused"?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there was a time element setup there where they haven't included in this testimony here of the fact that the early portion of this was about the financial setup, about calling the paper was at one time, and when he said something about going to his sister was later in the afternoon.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on page 151, are there any other additions or corrections or changes you would make?
Mr. CRAFARD. The second paragraph on page 151, the second complete paragraph where it starts, "Ruby then came back to the club or called Crafard about 7:30 p.m., that evening." I would like to strike out or called about 7:30 p.m., in the evening. The fact he had come back to the club is something I have established yesterday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But you did at that time you talked to the FBI, you weren't sure whether he came back or called?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about the time 7:30 p.m., as you think back about that now?
Mr. CRAFARD. At the time----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that an accurate time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so. I believe it was a supposed time, time.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. But is that your best recollection of the time, or would you now alter your estimate of what time it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that I said yesterday it was about. 6 or 6:30 when he came back to the club, I am not sure. I would say between 6:30 and 7:30 would be about the best estimate I might give on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you make that estimate?
Mr. CRAFARD. If I remember right, 8 o'clock I was sitting in the drugstore eating lunch, approximately 8 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you recall being at the drugstore at 8 o'clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. The one gift that works over there goes off at 8 o'clock and she left while I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, actually, you got to the drugstore some time before 8 o'clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And by that time Jack Ruby had already returned to the club and asked you to accompany him to Eva Grant's?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention to you at that time anything about going to the synagogue?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember. On the third paragraph on page 151, I believe yesterday I gave an earlier time for this same event of Jack calling me at the club on the morning of November 23.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the language you are referring to is on Saturday morning, November 23, at about 5:30 a.m., Ruby called him and told him to meet him downstairs with the Polaroid camera and some film.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe yesterday that the time I gave was about 2 hours earlier than this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best recollection now as to the time? Was your memory more accurate at the time you told the FBI about this episode or is it more accurate now after having spent 2 days discussing the matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in the trial in Texas it came out pretty well to where it just about had to be between 4:30 and 5 when he called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Mr. CRAFARD. At the trial, there was quite a bit of questioning on this effect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. And I believe the different times that some of the previous witnesses had given the lawyer, and I come to the agreement it must have been about between 4:30 and 5 o'clock that he called me.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your best recollection now? That is what we want to get.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's disregard what other people have told you to suggest what the time is, and try to think about your own activities. As I recall, you testified that you talked for 2 or 3 hours with a girl on the telephone.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you read for a while, and then you apparently started to doze off, to go to sleep.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the other time, the time element I used yesterday would be more of a correct time than this.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us just your recollection right now today.
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say between about 3:30 and 4:30.
In the same paragraph further down, closer towards the bottom. "When he got to the car, George, Ruby's roommate, was also there and they drove out on the Stemmons Freeway." I believe in this testimony here the Stemmons Freeway was more of a suggested name to me than anything else. I would like to dearly state I am definitely not positive of that sign.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified also yesterday that it was the Central Expressway.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe it was on the Central Expressway.
Referring to page 152 of this testimony, and back to previous testimony, I have made here concerning the mention of the name of Lee Harvey Oswald, I believe that this would be about the first time that we used the name of Oswald, was used very much among us. Previous to this, I don't believe there was any reference made to this person by name.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. Starting on page 151?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With the sentence, "He also recalled that while being at the waffle shop on Commerce Street, Ruby was reading about Lee Harvey Oswald in a newspaper."
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long a time would you say you spent at the waffle shop?
Mr. CRAFARD. Twenty or twenty-five minutes, maybe a half hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time it was when you were at the waffle shop?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right around six in the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend at the Earl Warren sign photographing that sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not more than 20 minutes at the most.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think it might have been as long as 20 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend some time in the car talking about the sign before you got out to photograph it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I believe we got out of the car immediately when we pulled over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it take you 15 or 20 minutes to photograph the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did it take so long?
Mr. CRAFARD. Trying to get the right angle on the sign where I could get the clearest picture of the words of the sign.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to walk across the street to photograph the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby get out of the car with you at the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; all three of us, Ruby, Senator and myself got out of the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Going over onto page 152, are there any additions or corrections you would make?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you some specific questions about that. I have made some notes myself.
On the bottom of page 148 of the FBI interview, which is Exhibit 5226, the FBI reports this language, "However, Andy Armstrong or Alexander, the assistant manager and bartender would handle the money until midnight."
Did you ever know Andy Armstrong by the name of Alexander?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I couldn't recall exactly what his last name was. At that time I believe my recollection was that it was either Armstrong or Alexander but I wasn't positive just exactly what his last name was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In this interview as reported on page 147 of Exhibit 5226, you state that "After completing this job Ruby asked him to stay at the club and work for room and board."
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He had the room in front of Ruby's office? This would be approximately November 1, 1963?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you have testified previously here that you thought you worked for Ruby for 6 weeks to 2 months.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, of course, if you went to work for him on November 1 you would have only worked for him about 3 weeks. Now, which is the more accurate recollection?
Mr. CRAFARD. My dates are mixed up on that. I am not positive of the date of the Dallas, Texas State Fair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work at the State Fair until the State Fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought I understood your testimony on Wednesday to be that the second show that you worked for there, the one with the band----
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Closed a few days before the State Fair actually closed.
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Mr. CRAFARD. It closed the day before the State Fair actually closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to work at the State Fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the State Fair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the way to accurately date when you began to work for Ruby would be in terms of when the State Fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be starting the day after the Dallas, Tex., State Fair closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the State Fair last?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the show, How Hollywood Makes Movies lasted about 1 week?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right at that; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the band show lasted about another week?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 149, the FBI reports you as indicating, and I am quoting, "He said that one night approximately November 14 or 15, 1963, Ruby was having trouble with an MC Earl Norman at the Carousel and about 1:30 a.m. he, Ruby, sent Crafard out to the car to get the gun."
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in testimony yesterday I stated that I couldn't remember exactly who he had the trouble with, and I am right now not clear after thinking all night, I am not clear in my mind as to the fact that it was Earl Norman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your memory accurate at the time you talked with the FBI?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure, though, that the reason Ruby went to get the gun was because he was having trouble with the M.C.?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is what I say. I am not positive of the fact who it was he was having trouble with.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that Ruby went to get the gun because he was having trouble with somebody?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he had had some trouble with somebody and he had sent me to get the gun.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You stated that the gun was believed to be the property of Howard?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Negro employee, and I am reading that from page 149. Is it still your understanding that that gun was Howard's gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Shortly after I went to work for Jack he told me or Howard told me that when he first went to work for Jack he had three or four different guns and he had permits for his pistols, and on a couple of occasions the law forces confiscated his pistols and later returned them, and he was afraid this might happen again and he wouldn't get this particular pistol back so Jack asked him if he could borrow the gun and he told Jack yes; he could use the gun as long as he wanted.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever say anything to you which indicated that the gun was not Jack Ruby's gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Howard about the gun that Jack Ruby had at any time after you went down to the car on the 14th or 15th of November to bring the gun up to Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk specifically with Howard about the gun that Jack was carrying around in the trunk of his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this was the gun our conversation was about. He said that gun had belonged, it was his gun, that he had loaned it to Mr. Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what kind of a .38 caliber revolver this was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a Colt. Other than that I couldn't say. It was a snubnosed revolver, Colt snubnosed is all I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything distinguishing about the handle?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn't describe anything distinguishable about the handle,
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but I believe I could recognize the revolver if I was to see it. Excuse me, that handle was an, I believe an imitation bone handle on that pistol. I believe it was kind of a grayish-white imitation bone handle with dark brown spots on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified that you believe Little Lynn called sometime on Friday evening, November 22?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would be your recollection that telephone call was received, was it before or after you had dinner at 8 o'clock over at the drug store?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was before I had dinner. I believe I said something to Jack about it when he came back and he said if she called again to give, tell her to call Miss Grant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she call back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. And I told her to call Miss Grant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 151 of Exhibit 5226 you are reported as saying in connection with the photograph of the Earl Warren sign and the post office box and I am quoting from the FBI report, "Crafard said he was completely puzzled as Earl Warren was unknown to him."
I believe you testified earlier here in Washington that you recall Ruby making some connection between an advertisement that he had seen in the newspaper and the Earl Warren sign.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remember that connection at the time you talked with the FBI?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the numbers on the address having something to do with something else that Ruby had talked about. I don't believe I would have anything to do with this advertisement. I don't believe anything on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that--are you clear that Ruby, now, that Ruby did make some connection between the advertisement and the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very clear. It was in connection with the addresses on the sign and this post office box number on this ad that he had saw in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you making this statement as a result of something that you personally recall or is this something that is now in your mind because of conversations you may have had with other people?
Mr. CRAFARD. This is something that I personally, clearly recall him making the statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it--Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask along that line?
On page 153 of Exhibit 5226 the FBI reports and I quote, "He knows of no police contacts on Ruby's behalf but said Ruby did keep a police card in the cash register at the Carousel with a name unknown to him on it."
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe this police card?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a white card with the emblem of a badge on it with some numbers on top of it, numbers on the badge. I can't recall what they were, if they were even clear. I believe it to have been in connection with some sort of a police club or something of that sort, either that or it was a detective's card that he might have one of the business cards, something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a card about the size of a business card?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And could you tell what police department this person was from?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex., Police Department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been the Dallas County Sheriff's office?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir. It was from the Dallas, one of the Dallas police departments.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did it have the name that was written on this card or printed on the card, did it have a rank in connection with it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been a card from a justice of the peace?
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Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't believe so. I never saw a justice of a peace card with an emblem of a shield on it. They usually have the emblem of the Justice Department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned Bill Willis as being a close friend of Jack.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis the leader of the band that played at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive but I believe he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis, Ruby's closest friend, in the band?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to that conclusion?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact that they would talk together quite often, if something come up in connection with the band it was always Bill he talked to, Bill seemed to talk to Ruby more than any of the other member of the band, and Ruby when he talked to anybody in the band it would be to Bill Willis more than anyone else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to depart from this exhibit for a bit. You worked for the Tear Plating Company?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not clear whether that was in Texas or Oregon.
Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Ablon Poultry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a detective by the name of Joe Cody?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that Jack had me call him on one occasion where he wanted to talk to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that you worked at the Dallas State Fair for Bob Craven and Deke Miles.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about those men that would have led you to believe that they were homosexuals?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were working for Jack did you know that he was getting any skin or scalp treatments of any sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know anything about any trichology treatments he was getting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack express, ever express any concern about his baldness?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn't a subject that he joked about or that other people kidded him about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall while you were working for Jack, Jack's making any inquiry concerning a business partner?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He was trying to get somebody to go in with him to open another club in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear him say about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called two or three different people and talked to them trying to get them to go in with him on this club. He made something, a statement to the effect that he had a building already, that it wouldn't take much to get it into shape, something about they could make the best club in Dallas, make it into the best club in Dallas, I believe specialized clientele, you might say a closed club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this going to be a striptease club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the people that Jack talked with about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack trying to interest these people in doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Backing him.
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Mr. GRIFFIN. He was looking for money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any friends that Jack had at a bar called Ed's Bar?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with Ed's Bar?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Dallas Cabana, do you know anything about any friends or acquaintances down there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he knew the gentleman who runs the Cabana Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man ever at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. He may have been but I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often Jack visited the Cabana?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often he visited the Baker Hotel or the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet or hear Jack talk about or hear anybody else talk about a girl named Connie Tramel or Trammell?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified before that you don't recall Jack saying anything about, saying anything after the President was killed about the dogs he was going to send to California?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack visited the Ritz Delicatessen?
Mr. CRAFARD. The what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of the Ritz, R-i-t-z, Delicatessen?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he ate meals there occasionally, although I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack discuss any travels he had taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss having been to Cuba?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss anything about taking a Caribbean cruise?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Plans for taking a Caribbean cruise?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss Barney Ross?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Ross' name familiar to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked as "Exhibit 5227" and I would like you to look at that and tell me if you recognize that.
(Letter marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5227 for identification.)
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it is a letter I wrote.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to tell without having read that letter when it was you wrote it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not the exact date. It was while I was working for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall how long it was before you left Dallas before you wrote that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe about a week before I left Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall why you didn't mail that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read that letter through and tell us if that is the actual letter that you wrote?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this is the letter I wrote.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like that letter back?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you mind if we made a photocopy?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn't mind it if you want it but that--but just give me a moment. I believe the reason I didn't mail this letter because I had
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remembered--because I had rewrote the letter just about exactly as it is here, but in a heater hand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you actually did mail that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left Dallas did you mail that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been about a week. About the same time I wrote it. I am not sure of it, I am not definite of that. But I believe that is the reason, I have done so on several occasions, wrote a letter and then rewrote it so it would be neater.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize the letter is a personal letter. However, I think it reflects some things about your state of mind while you were in Dallas and your relationship to Jack Ruby that we would like to have for the record and maybe we can handle this by my giving you a copy of that letter.
Mr. CRAFARD. Have you got a copy?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't have a photocopy of it but I have--it has been written up in an FBI report and simply ask you if that is an accurate the FBI report is an accurate rendition of the letter and then we can refer to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crafard, I understand you have asked us to return to you the original of the letter written by you to "Dear Gale" covering the front and back of a page, which has a letterhead on it "Jack Ruby Associates, Dallas, Texas" and which has been identified in this deposition as Exhibit 5227. Normally when a witness produces a document before the Commission we make a photostatic copy, keep the copy and then give the witness his document back. However, this document did not come into our possession in that way, you see.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. We got this document from the FBI. Therefore, we do not have authority to give it back to you. I will be glad to have a copy made for you if you would like to do that.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is all right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you like a copy?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; there is no need to go to that trouble. It is just I had no idea I had left that particular letter. I know I didn't do it on purpose. It was accidental, but I left it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, I want to hand you what has been marked for identification as "Exhibits 5228-A" and "5228-B". Now, do you recognize those as photographs of anything?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of my DD-214, my Army discharge, the front and back sides.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those, that DD-214, is the paper that you turned over to us on Wednesday?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those true and accurate copies of the DD-214 that you gave to us?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to return to you your copy of the DD-214, and thank you for producing that. I am also going to hand you two photographs which I will mark in the following manner--hand you one photograph--I am going to hand you two photographs which I may have marked "Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits 5229-A and B," and I will ask you to look at those and tell us if you recognize those as photographs of anything which you have seen before.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; they are exhibits of the front side and reverse side of the subpena that I was handed for the Jack Ruby murder trial in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You brought this subpena to us and turned it over to us on Wednesday, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return you, then, the subpena which you gave us on Wednesday, and thank you for bringing that in. Did you also produce on Wednesday a diary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you a series of 10 photographs which are
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marked, "Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits 5230," and they are numbered on the face of the photograph in a sequence starting with "A" which contains a picture of the front cover of a notebook which says, "USS" with a circle around the USS, and then in quotation marks "oil well" and then down on the bottom right-hand corner of this front cover which is photographed the number 1964. That photograph has the letter "A" on the front of it. After that, there are a series of photographs numbered in sequence 1 through 10 making a total of 11 photographs altogether. Now, I would like you to look at these photographs and tell us if that is a, if those photographs are photographs of anything that you have ever seen before.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of a pocket diary that is put out by United States Steel for the oil well corporation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who maintained that diary?
Mr. CRAFARD. I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that, are those photographs of the diary which you turned over to us on Wednesday?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you go through those photographs and tell us if everything that you have written in that diary up to date has been photographed in those pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; everything I have wrote in that book is here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do the Nos. 1 through 10 follow in sequence with the pages, the sequence of the pages that contain writing in your notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention to photograph No. 1. There is a notation at the top of that photograph. Would you read that notation?
Mr. CRAFARD. "No. 844," the letters HEB 12, 13 and underneath, 844 is the Nos. 12 with a dash 23.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you put that notation in the notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you put that on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just shortly after I got the notebook in Michigan.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that notation, what does that refer to?
Mr. CRAFARD. It refers to the Bible. It is referring to the Book of Hebrews, page 844 the 12th Chapter, and 23d verse.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you write that in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is something in the Bible that refers to the church to which I belong.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What church is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. General Assembly Church of the First Born. That is the only place in the Bible where the name can be found.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask about the notebook?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return the notebook to you at this time, and I want to thank you for bringing those documents to us. I want to ask you one final question. Is there anything which has come to your attention in connection with the murder of Lee Oswald or the assassination of President Kennedy that you haven't told us about that you think would be of value to the Commission?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can't think of anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you after we conclude this deposition if anything does come to your attention which might be of value to the Commission if you would contact us and bring it to our attention.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I will do so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. There have been several conversations between us which might be called interviews in the sense we were talking about the matter at hand during lunch and so forth, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that anything we conversed about at lunch or any interviews, has not been subsequently made a part of this deposition?
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Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever talked to any other member of the Commission staff than Mr. Griffin and myself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you feel that considering your testimony and various exhibits that you have identified that we have all you know about the matter that the Commission is investigating?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is, the death of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and Ruby's connection therewith.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you for coming here and spending these 3 days with us, and I believe that concludes the deposition.
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