Testimony Of Roy S. Truly
Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Truly, this is a continuation of your deposition. I took the last one and you have been sworn and I don't know that it is exactly necessary for you to take the oath again, since this is a continuation of the deposition. I took the last one, didn't I?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, no; I gave a statement that was under oath.
Mr. BALL. Oh, no; this is a deposition. You appeared before the Commission--that's fight.
Mr. TRULY. Mr. Belin took my sworn deposition also about a week before I went up there when you both were in Dallas and he also took a recorded deposition.
Mr. BALL. Yes; but that was just an investigation, an inquiry. We didn't record that. You weren't under oath then. Will you stand up and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. TRULY. I do.
Mr. BALL. Now, will you state your name, please?
Mr. TRULY. Roy S. Truly.
Mr. BALL. And you are superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. TRULY. That's correct.
Mr. BALL. Is that your title?
Mr. TRULY. And a director of the Depository.
Mr. BALL. You have been employed by the Depository for a number of years?
Mr. TRULY. Since 1934; since 1934.
Mr. BALL. You testified before the Commission in Washington, you say, on the 24th of March 1964; did you not?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Your testimony is filed in volume 28, I believe, of the Commission here. There are certain matters which have come to the attention of the Commission since then that I would like to inquire about, and that's the reason we are taking your deposition, which will be in addition to the testimony you have already given.
Do you recall anytime that you saw any guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. Prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I saw two guns on November 20.
Mr. BALL. Whose guns were they?
Mr. TRULY. They belonged to Mr. Warren Caster.
Mr. BALL. Now, before inquiring into the circumstances of seeing two guns that belonged to Mr. Warren Caster on November 20, 1963, I'll ask you whether or not you ever at anytime before that time or after that time saw guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. Never before.
Mr. BALL. Never before, and between that date Wednesday, November 20, and Friday, November 22, did you ever see any guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. I did see guns in there after the assassination.
Mr. BALL. That is, you saw guns of police officers?
Mr. TRULY. Of the police officers.
Mr. BALL. Carried by police officers?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; and I saw a rifle being carried from the building.
Mr. BALL. In other words, a rifle was found on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You saw that in place on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. No; I did not.
Mr. BALL. You didn't?
Mr. TRULY. I only saw the rifle as they were going out the front door.
Mr. BALL. Before the assassination, was there any other occasion besides the one we are inquiring about, when you saw guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. Never.
Mr. BALL. On November 20, 1963, you saw two guns owned by Mr. Warren Caster, can you tell me where and when and the circumstances under which you saw these guns?
Mr. TRULY. It was during the lunch period or right at the end of the lunch period on November 20. Mr. Caster came in the door from the first floor and spoke to me and showed me two rifles that he had just purchased. I looked at these and picked up the larger one of the two and examined it and handed it back to Mr. Caster, with the remark that it was really a handsome rifle or words to that effect, at which time Mr. Caster explained to me that he had bought himself a rifle to go deer hunting with, and he hadn't had one and he had been intending to buy one for a long time, and that he had also bought a .22 rifle for his boy.
Mr. BALL. Did you handle the .22 rifle?
Mr. TRULY. Not that I recall.
Mr. BALL. You did see it, though?
Mr. TRULY. I did see it.
Mr. BALL. Was it out of the carton?
Mr. TRULY. The carton was open, I believe, and I saw it. I don't recall picking it up or taking it out of the carton, but I could see it lying in the bottom part of the carton.
Mr. BALL. And you did take the large rifle out?
Mr. TRULY. And raised it to my shoulder and go through the motion of it, but not cocking it---just looking at it.
Mr. BALL. Who else was there besides you and Mr. Caster?
Mr. TRULY. Well, the only person I can recall being there was Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL. And what is his position with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. TRULY. He is manager of the miscellaneous department.
Mr. BALL. Was this in the open warehouse?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; right at the front. Mr. Caster had placed the cartons on the counter near the front door and that's where the rifles were when I them, and I picked one up out of the cartons.
Mr. BALL. And were they employees of the Texas School Book company on the first floor at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; they were---as I recall the time that the boys had ably gone back to work and could have been walking around before they went in the shipping department.
Mr. BALL. That would have been about what time of the day?
Mr. TRULY. I'd say around 1 o'clock--very close to it. It could have a little after or a little before. The boys go back to lunch at 12:45, so I'm not too clear.
Mr. BALL. What happened to these two rifles, Mr. Truly, that Mr. Caster got during the noon hour?
Mr. TRULY. They were placed back in the carton and Mr. Caster carried them out of the lobby door with him. That's the last I saw them.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see them again?
Mr. TRULY. Never--never.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see from that day until Friday, November 22, did you ever see those guns in the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never did.
Mr. BALL. Now, you recall that in your testimony before the Commission you told them that at some time after the shooting, you advised Captain Fritz of the name of Lee Oswald and his address in Irving?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. And in order to place the time of it, was it before or after the rifle had been found on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. I wouldn't know. I think it must have been around the rifle was found, because I was not on the sixth floor at that time, but when told--let's go back a few minutes--pardon me--I told Chief Lumpkin a good many minutes after we came down from the roof and he went ahead and gave some orders to two or three policemen surrounding him and then said, "Let's go up and tell Captain Fritz."
Mr. BALL. Now, what did you tell Chief Lumpkin when you came down from the roof of the building?
Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It my not mean anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be.
Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing?
Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun.
Mr. BALL. But walking which way?
Mr. TRULY. The last time I saw him, he was walking across Houston Street, east on Elm.
Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?
Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn't there.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean "a short time before"?
Mr. TRULY. I would say 10 or 12 minutes.
Mr. BALL. You mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY. In the lunchroom.
Mr. BALL. And you noticed he wasn't over there?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he said "No."
Mr. BALL. Now, you told Chief Lumpkin that there was a man missing?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; and he said, "Let's go tell Captain Fritz." Well, I didn't know where Captain Fritz was.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you tell Chief Lumpkin the man was missing before or after you called to the warehouse and got the name?
Mr. TRULY. No, I called the warehouse beforehand.
Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to any police officer before you called the warehouse and got the address?
Mr. TRULY. Not that I remember.
Mr. BALL. You did that on your own without instructions?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. So, when you talked to Chief Lumpkin, you at that time had in your possession there the address of Lee Oswald in Irving?
Mr. TRULY. That's right, I had scribbled it down on a piece of map or something so I would remember it.
Mr. BALL. That is the address that he had put on his application form for employment?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And did you know of any other address
Mr. TRULY. I didn't know of any other address at all.
Mr. BALL. Of Lee Oswald?
Mr. TRULY. I supposed that's where he was living.
Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle.
Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time?
Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building?
Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building.
Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found?
Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz?
Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there?
Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me.
Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found?
Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from----
Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only.
Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it.
Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found?
Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards.
Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz---after what, you tell me?
Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in ,the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly.
While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was.
Mr. BALL. About that time?
Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don'.t recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address?
Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes.
Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?
Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?
Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock.
Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place.
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that?
Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1.
Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1?
Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory.
Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so.
Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate?
Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination.
Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes.
Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address?
Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately.
Mr. BALL. Immediately?
Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Captain Fritz at that time.
Mr. BALL. Chief Lumpkin?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. BALL. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. TRULY. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three officers and I stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few things--it could have been 2 or 3 or 4 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Not over that?
Mr. TRULY. I don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "All right, Mr. Truly, let's go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this."
Mr. BALL. Then, if the gun wasn't found until after 1:10, you think it might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. It could be--it could have been.
Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was not there?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I didn't believe after thinking things over--it was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it could have been I or 1:05 or something like that.
Mr. BALL. Before you discovered Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. That's right, and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn't among the other workers.
Mr. BALL. You remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. That's when you were with Officer Baker?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Now, you heard that Tippit had been shot, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. Not after--until after I had told Chief Lumpkin and Captain Fritz and come back down to the first floor, then I learned that he had been shot. The first I learned of it--there was a young officer ran in the front door and told another officer, possibly a lieutenant, that there was an officer shot in Oak Cliff and that was all I knew at that time. I did not know that they had captured Oswald then. Later on a newspaper reporter told me.
Mr. BALL. Now, you say that you knew that Givens was not there afterwards?
Mr. TRULY. I knew he wasn't there at the time of the shooting because I had seen him walk across the street--up the street.
Mr. BALL. Toward what?
Mr. TRULY. Up Elm Street across Houston.
Mr. BALL. Toward Main---down toward Main?
Mr. TRULY. I saw him walking on the north side of Elm, crossing Houston--on the north side of Elm crossing Houston. However, at that time I saw two other boys with him and I later learned, I believe, that it was James Jarman and possibly Harold Norman-- there were two or three---they were all standing in the crowd close to myself and they- stared across Houston Street up Elm. I didn't see them turn over to the right across Elm.
Mr. BALL. Wait a minute you saw Norman and Jarman with Givens in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building first, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. Right; sometime earlier--a good deal-- a little while before the shooting--I believe they were the three.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Jarman and Norman going across Elm?
Mr. TRULY. I'm pretty sure there was the three of them.
Mr. BALL. And Jarman and Norman say that they went back into building?
Mr. TRULY. Well, apparently they did, but I saw them out there---I them there on the corner and starting across the street, but whether they completed it---I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Where is the last place you saw Givens?
Mr. TRULY. The last place I remember seeing Givens was in the middle of the crossing, in the middle of Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. Walking in which direction?
Mr. TRULY. Walking east.
Mr. BALL. Walking east on the north side of Elm?
Mr. TRULY. North side of Elm--he had not completely crossed the Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. Now, did Givens come back to the building later?
Mr. TRULY. I didn't see him--later on he did.
Mr. BALL. When--how much later?
Mr. TRULY. Much later--I suppose I don't know his actions during that
Mr. BALL. Did he come hack to the building?
Mr. TRULY. No.
Mr. BALL. After the shooting?
Mr. TRULY. I can't say--I think he came back to the front of the I can't answer for sure whether he came in the building--I know he was at the police station later on.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all right now.
(The deposition of the deponent Truly was adjourned from Room 301 Federal Building, Dallas, Tex., and continued at the office of the deponent Truly in the Texas School Book Depository Building, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex., as follows:)
Mr. BALL. Mr. Truly, when you came into the building with Officer Baker you tried to look up the elevator shaft, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I sure did.
Mr. BALL. And where did you see the elevators?
Mr. TRULY. On the fifth floor--both of them on the same floor.
Mr. BALL. They were both up on the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You are sure of that?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure, because their bottoms were level.
Mr. BALL. When you went up to the floor, was there an elevator on any of the floors?
Mr. TRULY. When I reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was there, but west one was not.
Mr. BALL. Do you know where it was?
Mr. TRULY. No; I don't. I didn't look, I just remember it wasn't upstairs, so it was down below me somewhere.
Mr. BALL. You took the east elevator?
Mr. TRULY. I took the east elevator load to the seventh floor.
Mr. BALL. That's all.
Mr. TRULY. Fine.
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